Art with a Heart has come a long way since founder and executive director Randi Pupkin launched the nonprofit from her law office desk in 2000.

Pupkin had been working in construction litigation for 14 years when she decided she needed a change — a new way of helping people. So, she left her legal practice and founded Art with a Heart in order to provide art classes to communities around Baltimore.

What started as a small but passionate project out of the trunk of Pupkin’s car grew into a citywide operation. Art with a Heart hosts thousands of art classes per year, has installed about 300 public art pieces, and is a regular fixture in Baltimore City Public Schools and other community sites.

Last month, Art with a Heart announced it will be expanding with a satellite location on The Avenue in Hampden, which will house HeARTwares, the nonprofit’s social enterprise store, as well as HeARTworks, their workforce development program.

Next year, Pupkin will retire from the nonprofit she founded and will officially pass the reigns to her current deputy director, Megan Gatto, in June 2025.

Pupkin spoke with Baltimore Fishbowl about Art with a Heart nearing its 25th anniversary, preparing a new generation to take over the nonprofit, and the difference art can make (and has made) in the lives of Baltimore residents.

Baltimore Fishbowl: What was your inspiration for starting Art with a Heart nearly 25 years ago?

Randi Pupkin: My inspiration was my love of art and my love of people. I took art classes as a young child in Baltimore. I’m born and raised in Baltimore, and art was always like my recess or my sport. I never was an athlete, so going to art class was where I could be anywhere in my head – the beach, some foreign country – and kind of escape from life and I valued that. I became a lawyer because I love the idea of helping people and elevating humanity, and I thought I would be able to do that as a lawyer. I found that I was really fighting with other lawyers more than I was elevating humanity, so I decided to combine my love of art and my desire to help people and I founded Art with a Heart from the desk in my law office.

BFB: How did Art with a Heart’s work specifically with Baltimore City schools come about? Tell me how that works.

RP: We just got a request from a principal years ago because there was a void in his school for art programming and he asked if we could fill that void with our programming, which we were already doing in the community. We were already taking art classes to communities that did not have equitable access to art, whether that was in rec centers or PAL programs or shelters, group homes. Children, youth, seniors, anyone who didn’t have access. We were already providing that enrichment, and this principal heard about us and asked if we could fill the void in his school. That’s what we did and that grew from one school to eight schools to 15 schools, and now we’re in 17 schools with the desire that we would not have to be in any schools, but we’ll be in the schools until we don’t have to be in the schools.

BFB: You’re kind of hoping to work yourself out of a job with those schools, right? That one day your partnership will no longer be needed because they’ll have their own robust art programs.

RP: Yes. I mean, the idea is that there’s not a teacher shortage, but I think I read the other day that there’s 171 vacancies in Baltimore City. I don’t know how many of them are arts teachers, but for sure we work here if we’re needed.

BFB: How have you seen youth grow through Art with a Heart’s workforce development (HeARTworks) and leadership (Art of Leadership) programs?

RP: So the workforce development program started 20 years ago. It’s wonderful to see a young person walk into the program skeptical and then kind of figure out that we’re trustworthy and consistent, and that they’re here and they’re in this program and it’s almost like they resign themselves to showing up. Then you watch their minds open and they find joy in the process. Many have gone on to better themselves in school and in jobs. We have two employees right now that were in the program that work in Art with the Heart. And many other young people – well, they’re probably not so young anymore. It depends on how you consider ‘young.’ It’s relative – but many other that I’m still connected to through social media, they’re living their lives, they’re working, they’re married, they have kids. Some aren’t married, but most are working, and many would credit the path that they decided upon starting here at Art with a Heart.

The Art of Leadership is in its 10th year. We’re in our 10th cohort. That has been extraordinary in that the community that is created in that program — it’s a small cohort. It’s between like 18 and 25 students. — they stay connected. For 10 years, the first cohort has been connected. Two of the students in that cohort are now on our advisory board. One is a teacher, and one works for Governor Moore. And Moore [before becoming governor] was the speaker for our first cohort. He came and spoke to them, and all the students got his book, “The Other Wes Moore.” That was the only book he had written at the time. And so one works for him now. I just think that that program provides those students with the opportunity to stretch their boundaries, to meet community that they otherwise would not even know about, to talk about issues that they don’t usually have the opportunity to engage in conversation that they have here. It’s a really special program, and I’m very proud of the students that have allowed themselves to open up and be vulnerable with people they wouldn’t know but for that program.

BFB: Your work with the community is very hands-on. How did you manage to continue that work during COVID?

RP: That’s a great question. Everyone that works here has a lot of grit, and it was a really scary time. I think we all felt like we got punched in the stomach a little bit, like now what? But it really didn’t take us long. It took us a lot of Zoom calls, and as a team gathering on Zoom, and figuring out what’s next, how do we keep our students engaged in the creative, tactile art-making, not just talking on Zoom. I think we were all out in March [2020]. Probably by the end of April [2020], we were packing art kits and delivering them to schools, and the schools were handing them out when they were handing out laptops for students to be able to engage in school virtually. So we packed 12,000 art kits and delivered them to all of the schools that we programmed with. As an aside, we also have a large community art effort, and we engage thousands of volunteers every year, but we have a core group of volunteers that are between the ages of probably 60 and 90, and they come every week. It’s about 50 of them, and they have shifts, and they bring their lunch and it’s like a job to these 50 people. Prior to the pandemic, I used to think ‘Wow, they just do so much for us. They help us prepare for classes, they help with community art projects, and they just keep us rolling.’ And during the pandemic I realized – as they were the first people knocking on our door to get back in and they were the highest risk group – how much we also do for them, not just how much they do for us. And so we built a sculpture, a community art sculpture that’s now at the University of Maryland hospital, entirely during the pandemic. Coming in masked, working six feet apart, whatever we had to do, we created that big eight-foot sculpture during that time.

BFB: Tell me how Art with a Heart has been so successful and stuck around for so long. I know many nonprofits aren’t around after even five or 10 years. So 25 years is a lot!

RP: Well, thank you. I think it’s extraordinary. I think the first thing is that somebody told me right after I incorporated Art with a Heart and really went full throttle – because it was just me – somebody in the funding world said most nonprofits last five years. It was kind of like that’s all I needed to hear to make sure that we lasted more than five years. I was like, ‘Okay, here we go.’ I think the organization has lasted because of the commitment of the people who have worked here, who currently work here, who care deeply about the mission. Both our employees, our teachers and assistants in the community, they’re foot soldiers. They do hard work every day. Nothing happens in a silo here. The recognition is really about the community of people that commit to making it work every day. It’s a machine and we all help the machine run. It’s extraordinary. It really is. And I’m so grateful for the staff and the teachers and assistants and the team and the volunteers; it’s a full community effort. I know that it’s cliche to say it takes a village, but this organization, the village, is what makes it happen. I couldn’t do it on my own, that’s for sure. And nobody here could. But I think we dig in deep when we have to, and we know how to be nimble and we work hard.

BFB: Are there a couple Art with a Heart community art projects that you’re particularly proud of over the years?

RP: Of course. There’s the first large-scale mosaic that we ever did. Debbie Phelps [mother of Olympic swimming champion Michael Phelps] was the principal at Windsor Mill Middle School, and a student had been hit by a car while riding his bicycle and he passed away. They were planting a memorial garden for him and she contacted us to do this large mosaic on the wall of the garden. When I said we dig in, we dug in. We were like ‘Let’s do this.’ And it just started a snowball effect of large-scale projects. It was probably 2009 or 2010. And that just started this snowball of other murals, other mosaics, and it’s just continued. We have close to 300 community art pieces of various sizes all throughout the Baltimore community. And that thought brings me incredible joy just to be able to beautify the community. It’s like we’re part of the fabric of Baltimore with paint and tile. So that one project really is special. We had an artist working with us named Jane Rubini who designed it, and then we took the panels to the school. The students that knew the deceased young man worked on it. His family worked on it. Everybody in the school worked on it. Then we installed it. It was a really special project. That led to another project that was like 18 feet by 10 feet. Huge. So that one was really special. And of course, the heart that was created during the pandemic. It’s hard to find a favorite.

BFB: Is the heart that sculpture at the University of Maryland hospital you were speaking about?

RP: Yes.

BFB: Has your leadership style changed over the years?

RP: For sure. I mean, I’ve been marinating for 62 years. I think as a leader and as just a person, you grow and change. I try to keep learning and listening. When I was in law school, I used to take walks with this woman who was 88 years old, and she used to talk to me about listening and how it kept her young, and I’ll never forget that. And so I really try and listen, and I know what I don’t know, and I know that there are people who know what I don’t know, so I really try and grow and learn from that. I think as you get older too, this is going to sound cliche, but you learn to – you don’t sweat the small stuff, but you learn to prioritize things. I also think there’s a divide between what it was like when I was growing up and how we worked, and younger people today and their expectation of a work environment. I try and pass that on to the younger leaders in the organization who kind of speak the same language, because I’m always full throttle. I’m always just charging and working and I love what I do, so it doesn’t feel bad to be doing it.

BFB: I understand that you are set to take a step back from your executive director position soon. What will that look like? I know it’s hard to completely walk away from an organization that you’ve been running for 25 years. Will you still be involved?

RP: So this is interesting. I am the founder, so everyone asks that question and I think it’s a great one. I think it would be daunting if I didn’t feel like the succession plan was good, and the person who was succeeding me, if I was worried about that person not being able to succeed. But I am really excited and really confident in handing this child over to the next person. I think she’s going to do a fantastic job. And I will be behind the scenes coaching her a little bit. Not formally as a coach, but consulting with her and helping her. I will not be sitting on the board. I am not going to have an office. But I look forward to helping her in any way I can and advising her. There’ll be lots of questions, I’m sure. I mean, there’s a lot to think about when you’re running a multi-million dollar nonprofit. There’s insurance and phone systems and HR matters, and she’s learning. It’s a co-leadership model right now. We share an office, so she’s basically shadowing everything. And although she’s not here today for the interview, she’s heard all this before. It’s actually really exciting. I know it’s time to go. The organization deserves a younger leader now.

BFB: Who will be taking over?

RP: Our deputy director, Megan Gatto.

BFB: So after that ‘coaching process,’ when she’s more used to being in the executive director role and you can take even more of a step back, what’s next for you?

RP: I’m going to take a little time to read a book, and then I want to get a job. I want to work somewhere else. I’m not tired. I mean, I’m a little tired, but I see that I have energy to do something else. I just don’t know what that is yet. I’m excited about what’s next. What it is, I’m not sure.

BFB: You mentioned you want to read a book. Do you have any particular books you’re looking forward to?

RP: My advisor from college worked for the State Department, and his wife worked for the State Department, and he published a book of her diary. It’s like 900 pages. They were like surrogate parents to me, so I want to read that book. It’s going to take a while.

BFB: Yeah, 900 pages! Wow!

RP: I know. Maybe I should start with Dr. Seuss to work my way up.

BFB: Art with a Heart will have its 25th anniversary next year. How will you and your team celebrate the occasion?

RP: We are having an event on March 29, 2025 at the M&T Bank Exchange. It’s in the evening. And so we’re going to have a party. I mean, we’ve got to have a party. We haven’t really had a party since 2015, any kind of fundraiser event. I’m calling it a party because really this is a celebration. It’s a celebration of the extraordinary work that the organization has done for 25 years. But also, passing the paintbrush, so to speak. We’re really looking forward to just bringing together, the Baltimore community in one space, to celebrate the organization and the people who have made it happen. We signed a lease to take a satellite location for the organization at where the Hampden Family Center UCLA Avenue is. We have a social enterprise retail store called HeARTwares, and we’ll be moving the store onto the Avenue, which is very exciting because it’s never really been in a location that allowed it to have foot traffic. We’re in Mill One and people do come here, but it will be very nice for just passersby to see the work that’s created by our students in our workforce program. We’re also going to move the workforce program to the Avenue, to that location. It has two classrooms. For students, transportation’s never been a barrier to them getting here; they just have to walk from the stop on the Avenue. So now it’ll just be less of a walk for them. And we’re excited about that too. That’s an exciting thing that’s happening, kind of to celebrate and honor and feel our growth in 2025.

We want to be really clear, because the whole universe is going to think we’re moving, but we’re not moving. When we moved into our space in Mill One, we had eight employees. Now we have 17. So it’s just a lot and that’s why we need supplement. We really ran out of space, which is unbelievable.

BFB: It’s a good problem to have!

RP: I know! I always tell my team that being busy is a great problem to have, because we could be laying people off. I hope that never happens.

BFB: What would you like to see for Art with a Heart in the next 25 years?

RP: Well, I feel like that’s not for me to answer because there’ll be a new leader who will have a vision of her own. I would just like to see it thrive. We have like five branches to the organization, and I would like to see them all continue to grow and, like I said, thrive and be part and parcel to our community.

The name might not say it all, but the Baltimore Museum of Industry is much more about people than machines. According to it’s mission statement, the museum “interprets the diverse and significant human stories behind labor and innovation in Baltimore,” with a goal of “inspiring visitors to think critically about the intersection of work and society.” Anita Kassof has led the museum as its executive director since 2015, and is now steering it through a process of growth and reflection: over the past two years, the Museum of Industry has completed a new strategic plan, and has engaged an Urban Land Institute Technical Assistance Panel to provide guidance on everything from exhibits to use of the Inner Harbor promenade that is part of the museum property on Key Highway.

After the collapse of the Key Bridge, journalists looked to the museum to help explain to the nation the significance of the Port of Baltimore and its workers to the city — an opportunity that Kassof embraced. Kassof spoke with Baltimore Fishbowl about the opportunities and challenges facing the Baltimore Museum of Industry in a post-pandemic environment. This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: How would you describe this moment right now in the museum’s lifespan — and where you want to go?

Anita Kassof: I think that we are at an inflection point. I think that coming out of the strategic plan and with the ULI TAP [Technical Advisory Panel] under our belts as well, we’re at a moment when we’re poised for growth around revisioning our campus and really sharpening our mission and the delivery of our services in a way that is very relevant and timely. You probably saw our mission statement and in the strategic plan, and I am absolutely convinced that we have the most relevant mission of any museum in town, or I’d say perhaps in the country, because we’re a museum about work, and everybody can relate to that. They work, they want to work, they don’t want to work. Their work has changed. The changing nature of work frightens them or intrigues them. So our subject matter is something that everyone can relate to in some way or another.

BFB: One of the interesting recommendations was regarding exhibits, and in particular temporary exhibits, bringing them in, making them more relevant and building a buzz around that. Have you been thinking about that and moving in that direction yet?

AK: Naturally, we have been thinking about that a lot. And even before the strategic plan, we were heading down that path of engaging more with contemporary topics. So our most recent exhibition is called ‘Collective Action,’ which is a look at the contemporary labor movement. And that grew out of a question that we felt that people were asking, based on a lot of the coverage that we’ve all seen in the news. People from Starbucks employees to university workers are organizing and forming unions at their workplaces at a rate that they hadn’t been in the recent past. So we set out simply to answer the question why? Why are people organizing now? But what the exhibition also does, and what the museum is really singularly positioned to do, is to both answer those questions, but then put them into historical context. So after we opened that exhibition, for example, we held a public program where we invited some of the younger employees who are organizing in places like Starbucks, together with Bethlehem Steel retirees who were members of the unions that people more traditionally associate with the labor movement. And we got them in conversation, and it was really interesting to see this kind of intergenerational dialog about issues that are important to both generations, to figure out where the similarities and differences were

A couple of years ago we opened a terrific exhibition called ‘Food for Thought,’ which honored the frontline food service workers in Baltimore City Public Schools who prepare and serve about 80,000 meals a day to Baltimore students, and who, importantly, kept working through the pandemic. So while the school teachers and many of the administrators and the students went shifted to remote learning, the food service workers had to keep coming to work. About 25% of kids in Baltimore City are food insecure, and these folks needed to keep coming to work to feed the children, so we created a really wonderful exhibition honoring them.

Part of the public conciousness

BFB: I think of industry in Baltimore, and a lot of it is waterfront facing, so that if you’re not interacting with the harbor or the water you don’t quite see it a lot. But then we get these tragic events, like a Domino Sugar fire or a Key Bridge collapse. How do these big-scale events affect industry in Baltimore and interest in the museum?

AK: Well, for starters, you made a good point, which is that the port is hidden in plain sight, and that sort of relates to what I’m about to say with regard to the tragedies. Take the Key Bridge tragedy. I think that’s very important for the museum and our role, but I think primarily not because of the tragedy per se, but in helping people make sense of what happened, and again, how that fits into the context of larger questions about work and industrial history.

Very soon after the bridge collapsed, we started getting inquiries from news outlets and from others asking for comment. I think that people naturally saw us as a resource. And then we very quickly announced a collecting initiative. We announced that we would be receiving materials from people who had connections to the Key Bridge, whether it’s photographs or something else. We’re actually going to get a piece of steel from the Key Bridge and create a memorial artwork. And we very quickly got some seed funding to create an oral history project to record the experiences of people whose work and livelihoods have been impacted by the Key Bridge. So I think people see us as a natural resource and source of information when things like that happen. And where appropriate, we’re really gratified to be able to step in. I think that with the Key Bridge in particular, you alluded to something when you first asked the question about about the port really not being typically in the public consciousness, but the Key Bridge collapse changed that. The eyes of the world were on Baltimore for a period of time, acknowledging the importance of us as a connector when it comes to trade, import, export, kind of taking stock of how many jobs are impacted when the bridge collapsed. And I think that the museum has a role to play in making sure that those stories remain in the public consciousness. Because I have always maintained that as a museum about industry in Baltimore, we have opportunities to do more to tell the story of the port and the jobs that impact it. So I think that the Key Bridge disaster, in some sense, provides us that opportunity, while the world is looking at us.

BFB: Your location is phenomenal and is one of the truly great locations in the city of Baltimore. And the Urban Land Institute pointed out that maybe there’s even more to be done — being outward facing — and what the entrance should be like off of Key Highway. How much of that is feasible?

AK: The Urban Land Institute hit on something important, which is that, especially given everything that’s going on in the Inner Harbor, and the city’s refocus on revitalizing the Inner Harbor overall, I think our challenge and opportunity is to demonstrate to people that we are a key part of that chain. The museum has always been envisioned as the terminus of the promenade when it’s finally completed, and we have a significant property because it is itself the site of former industry; we’re in an oyster cannery. So I think that looking holistically at everything that’s going on in the Inner Harbor, we have tremendous opportunities there. That’s more of a long term thing, but you asked about the short term.

And in the short term, what we’re doing with both the Urban Land Institute plan and our strategic plan is to activate the campus more fully. So just in the last few months, we’ve engaged in some amazing partnerships. In April, we partnered with the Baltimore Old Time Music Festival, and we had well over 1,000 people on the campus for a weekend of music and celebration. We had a fantastic Juneteenth celebration here in partnership with tbe BLK ASS FLEA MKT. Again, well over 1,000 people inside and outside all afternoon for music and creative activities and a flea market. And then, most recently, our 4th of July celebration. People watch fireworks from our campus, the best spot in the city, and that was our biggest one to date. So people really appreciate the campus, and I think it just reinforces our role as a community amenity. We want the campus to be lively and hopping.

A beautiful location

BFB: I did see that the number of events you host each year is huge. It’s maybe 150 or more. Is there a enough of a nexus between people coming and wanting to use the space first and then coming back to experience all that the museum has to offer? Or is there an opportunity there?

AK: Both. I think it’s interesting when I’m when I’m out and about and talking about the museum, oftentimes what people will say is, ‘I know the museum. I love the museum. I’ve been to an event there.’ So it’s an opportunity, for sure, because we have so many corporate events, weddings, other kinds of events, they’re positive experiences for people, people come in, they’re in a beautiful space, they have a good time, and they begin to understand that the museum is an exciting place to be outside of their event. So they do come back. They’re familiar with us. And I think that one thing that people realize when you hear Museum of Industry, the first thought might be, we are a museum about machines, but really the more interesting story is, and that we tell is the people who built the machines, the people who use the machines, and sort of what that means for communities.

BFB: Have you thought about a renaming? Has that ever been on the table?

AK: It’s been bandied about over the years. A lot of things are on the table. It’s not out of the realm of possibility.

Baltimore’s history museum

BFB: Industry and work evolves so much. So how do you approach the challenge of connecting the past and the present and then the future of industry, particularly in the Baltimore region?

AK: The first thing is just to acknowledge the rapid change of work today, to provide the historic context, because I think people can better understand what’s going on today if they understand what its predecessors were and how things came about, rather than looking at things in a vacuum. The idea of looking to the future is a little trickier, but one of the things that we’re doing is to develop new kinds of public programs. Not necessarily exhibitions, but public programs that engage people that are doing really interesting things in the world of work today. Whether that’s networking events or panel discussions or films, we’ve got a very exciting lineup. And I think that a lot of those conversations that we’ve got planned for the coming year will address questions about how work is evolving and how it might continue to be reshaped in the future.

BFB: Have you reacted or responded to the part of the analysis about how your revenue structure might be inverse compared to other other institutions, with less revenue from membership and endowment to even on-site gift shop sales?

AK: There are definitely ways to change that, and we are atypical of many museums in that we rely heavily on our events rental income, and we are regularly strategizing, using data more intelligently to help us increase our philanthropic income and also increase visitation. Our challenge is to continue to demonstrate to people that we are an essential community asset that is worthy of support. But we’re not alone in these challenges. It is a tough time to be a museum. As we come out of the pandemic, by some estimates, visitation on average, is depressed by about 20% in museums across the country, and so it’s a steeper hill to climb than it was before the pandemic. We made it through the pandemic pretty strong. We used it as an opportunity to reinvent. We’re small enough that we could be very nimble and change the way we delivered services. We competed successfully for the various sources of federal relief funds. But I know from talking to colleagues in the museum community that we’re not alone in feeling the struggle now.

BFB: Do you see visitors to Baltimore who do a ‘museum tour’ — come from out of town and go to the Lewis Museum, the Visionary Arts Museum, the Walters? Do you become part of that?

AK: Absolutely. Over the years, Visit Baltimore has engaged in a lot of different initiatives to try and get people to extend their stays in Baltimore, to come for more than one attraction or event – maybe to come to a sporting event and then go to museums. And we absolutely have a lot of out-of-town visitors. And I maintain that if you want to get to know Baltimore City from a museum experience, we are the most appropriate place to come visit. Because in a lot of ways, we are Baltimore City’s history museum.

Jason Woody has been leading B’More Clubhouse as its executive director for 11 years. The program – now housed in a historic Mount Vernon firehouse at the intersection of Calvert and Read streets – is the only one of its kind in Maryland. The Clubhouse model began in New York in 1948, and has now expanded across the country and the globe, providing community-based psychosocial rehabilitation for people with severe depression, schizophrenia, severe bipolar disorder and other serious mental illnesses.

Clubhouse helps its members rejoin society and maintain their place in it. It builds on people’s strengths and provides mutual support, along with professional staff support, for people to receive work training, educational opportunities, and social support while offering people living with mental illness opportunities for friendship, employment, housing and more. Advocates say that social and economic inclusion reverses trends of higher suicide, hospitalization and incarceration rates associated with mental illness.

Woody sees potential for the B’More Clubhouse model to be replicated throughout the state. This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: What do you find valuable about the Clubhouse concept?

Jason Woody: The concept is valuable because, simply put it, it works. It’s driven by research. I think a lot of people that participate in our clubhouse – and around the country and around the world – get stuck in a situation where they’re  labeled as a lifelong patient, …as a consumer, someone that just has to go to various places and receive services.

The Clubhouse turns that upside down. We’re not an alternative to traditional treatment, and we’re certainly in support of traditional forms of treatment, but it’s a place where people can focus on their personhood rather than the patienthood aspect. It is a place where people are empowered to utilize the skills that they already have and to gain new skills, if that makes sense. It’s one thing to go get therapy and to take medication and manage your symptoms, which is obviously very important. But it’s another thing to have a reason to be healthy and to maintain your health, because you have things that you want to do in your life. Most people want to work, have friends and gain an education and have quality housing, and so the Clubhouse is a place where people can really be themselves and focus on the things that they want to do in their lives, rather than just going somewhere and talking about what’s wrong with them.

BFB: Are there a set of expectations for and accountability for Clubhouse members?

JW: We don’t set goals for people. People set their own goals, and once you join as a member, membership is free and as far as we’re concerned, and this is true in any Clubhouse, it’s a lifetime membership. That doesn’t mean that you have to keep coming here for the rest of your life, and most people don’t. But if you join, you can choose to come and go as you please, and to interact with the clubhouse in the way that you see fit for yourself at that given time.

So some people are coming here primarily to socialize. Some people are coming here primarily to have a daily purpose like work to do every day, to be involved and be productive. Some people are coming here to get support for their return to work or school or with housing or other things like that. Most people are coming for some combination of those things…We do help people complete goal plans, but we don’t set that expectation for people. People set that for themselves. We ask folks like what they want to do, and how can we help them?

BFB: What’s the staffing like for the clubhouse? Who are the professionals that are there?

JW: The staffing at our Clubhouse and all Clubhouses is intentionally small, because one of the things that makes the Clubhouse model effective is that the members are truly needed to actually run the organization.

And the heart of the program is what we call our work-ordered day, where members are doing everything from answering the phones to cooking lunch to tracking data to cleaning and anything you can really imagine that would go into running a nonprofit organization.

But we currently have seven full-time staff and about 40 members that are coming each day. In terms of the professional background of our staff, it’s not a requirement to have a mental health or behavioral health background. We do have a program director who’s a licensed social worker, but most of our staff are really just coming from varied backgrounds – not from the mental health field. We’re not clinicians here, and we’re not trying to be. We’re looking for staff that are dynamic, that can engage people, that are humble, and that can accept help from members. …It’s more of we’re colleagues with each other in running the organization.

BFB: If I came inside as a visitor, what would it look like to me? What does the space look like?

JW: We’re in a really neat building….this old firehouse in Mount Vernon, the corner of Calvert and Read Street. It very briefly was a brew pub. The clubhouse is set up into different work teams, or work units.

When you come in, the floors are very open  — downstairs, on our first floor, we have our membership and our culinary teams. The membership would come in and see the reception desk, people are answering the phone, people working on the computer, tracking attendance, people doing reach out calls to members that haven’t come in for a while. And then you would see, you know beyond that, our kitchen people prepare breakfast and lunch every day and dinner a couple times a week.

Upstairs, we have what we now call our ‘bizcom’ team, or business and communications team. So that’s folks that are working on our monthly newsletter social media, keeping our social media sites updated, planning our social events, which we do on evenings and weekends and holidays, and then working to develop partners. We have folks in the business area working to develop partnerships with employers to help members come back to work, obviously supporting members who are already currently working, and doing the same for people who are in school or want to go to school.

BFB: If you’re a member, can you show up whenever you want? Are you supposed to show up daily?

JW: You can go whenever you want. We have probably about 15 or 20 people that are here, a core group that comes just about every day that we’re open. And then we have a lot of people who come more sporadically, maybe once or twice a week. Some people we might not see more than once or twice a month, because people are doing different things. Some people are working full time, and pop in every once in a while, and again, some people need something to do every single day, so they’re here working and helping to run a Clubhouse.

BFB: Can you explain to me the analysis and studies that have been done about the financial benefits that the Clubhouse program provides to the overall health system?

JW: Several years ago, we did a study with Johns Hopkins School of Public Health that looked at public mental health costs of B’More Clubhouse members compared to a control group of adults living with mental illness in Baltimore who are not members of the Clubhouse. That study found that the B’More Clubhouse members had a 50% lower cost to Maryland public mental health system compared to the control group. There wasn’t anything conclusive in the study about exactly why, but we are pretty sure it’s because it’s far less likely for our members to be hospitalized, because they’re way less likely to become isolated, which helps to reduce some of the negative impacts of people’s illness. If someone’s involved, and they have a community and they feel needed, and they have opportunities to do other things in their lives, they’re less likely to isolate and to become more ill.

The other study was from Fountain House, in New York City. It opened in 1948 and we are not directly affiliated with it but they are part of the Clubhouse network, and they did a recent study…for people living with serious mental illness … they estimated savings of at least $682 million and there’s about 190 to 200 clubhouses in the US. And they had projected in that study that if, if only 5% of people living with serious mental illness in the United States had access to a clubhouse that could produce annual savings of $8.5 billion

BFB: It looks like you’re you’re getting some public funding to do some improvements. Can you talk to me about that?

JW: Well, we did just get a $50,000 capital grant award from the state to support the construction of an elevator….A couple of years ago we got a $500,000 grant from the Baltimore Mayor’s Office — American Rescue Plan Act funding that was really a one-time gift to help sustain our program during the pandemic and to build up our capacity to serve more people. So that was a huge; that was our largest grant that we’ve ever gotten, and really helped us get through some tough times and been able to pick our heads up and kind of think about the future and how we can sustain B’More Clubhouse but also kind of lead the way in helping to expand Clubhouses around the state. We’re the only one in the state of Maryland. Pennsylvania, for example, has about 20 clubhouses. Michigan has 40 clubhouses. There’s a lot of need and opportunity, I think, in Maryland, to replicate this model. So we’re currently in some conversations with people in the Department of Health about ways that we can sustain B’More Clubhouse, but also lead the way in helping to bring the Clubhouse model to other parts of the state.

BFB: How do you receive money? Are you able to bill Medicaid?

JW: Yes, it is a reimbursement for services….We get about a third of our funding for Medicaid, and then the other two thirds from grants and donations.

BFB: How do neighbors geographically respond and relate? There’s a lot of NIMBYism in the world. Has B’More Clubhouse experienced that?

JW: I’ve been really pleased, to be honest. We’ve been in Mount Vernon since we opened in 2009, and the building we’re in now, we purchased it right at the end of 2020. We were kind of worried that there might we might be treated a little bit differently as buyers versus renters. I’ve been here basically since the organization started, and I think the entire time, our neighbors have treated us really well, and I think people have become more curious since we’ve been in this really prominent and cool building. We have people that just wander in, like, thinking that we’re still a restaurant or something like that all the time… pretty much universally, the response has been very positive.

After serving two terms as Maryland’s lieutenant governor and as a loyal partner to Larry Hogan, Boyd K. Rutherford is on break from public service – and is using his legal and business expertise to help companies navigate government contracting as a partner with the Columbia-based firm of Davis, Agnor, Rapaport and Skalny.

He previously served as an associate administrator in the General Services Administration under President George W. Bush, as Department of General Services Secretary in Annapolis, and as Assistant Secretary for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. But now, with no Republican in the White House or the State House, Rutherford, 67, has no agencies to run, and no government problems to solve.

But he is still in touch with Hogan, and is supportive of the former governor’s campaign for Senate. Rutherford and Hogan are aligned on their views of Donald Trump, and Rutherford gives good marks to some of the early moves of the Moore-Miller administration. He spoke with Baltimore Fishbowl recently about these issues and more, in a conversation below that has been edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: Explain your current role, which is your new role, and what you’re hoping to do with it, and what made it attractive to you as your next step out of the State House?

Boyd Rutherford: I have joined the Davis, Agnor, Rappaport and Skalny law firm here in Columbia. I’ve known Jeff [Agnor] and Mike Davis for a number of years, and I actually worked with Jeff Agnor on some legal matters a couple of years before going into the Lieutenant Governor’s office. When thinking about what’s going to be next, coming out of the state government, I ran into Mike Davis. Mike said, ‘Hey, think about us when that time comes.’ I gave it some thought, and I had looked at some of the other firms, and the larger firms in Baltimore. I knew I didn’t want to be at one of the big mega firms, national firms, and even looking at some of the firms in Baltimore, I just didn’t feel there was a good fit for where I am at this point in my life and what I want to do. … I’ve been here a little more than a year now, and I work in the business transactional unit, and I have a couple of business transactional clients, but a lot of what I do is kind of government affairs type of work. I’ve done some lobbying on the local level, and doing a small amount of state [lobbying] now that I’ve passed that [one-year] blackout period…A lot of it is just advising folks how to get through the process.

BFB: Why were you interested in government affairs and legal work, versus either continuing in public service outside of elected office, which you’ve done for a long portion of your career, or even seeking another elected office?

BR: I thought about running for another office, but my wife didn’t want me to. I thought it was more important at this point to stay married than to pursue something that really, really as she expressed herself strongly, that she did not want me to run. I was thinking about running for governor, but when she expressed herself strongly that she did not support that idea, it made me really think about whether this is something I really want to do. Because I never set out to be an elected politician….With her objections, I realized it wasn’t something that I wanted to do, particularly at this point in my life.

BFB: You you have a reputation as someone who runs big, complex agencies and can get the job done both at the state level and at the federal level, and maybe doesn’t need the glory but is willing to do the work. Why not public service apart from elected office?

BR: Well, I mean, no one has asked me…That wasn’t something I had to consider, because it wasn’t there presented to me. I don’t know if I’d go back into state or federal government. I mean, I’d have to see what the situation is, but it was something that I did enjoy doing, like you said, just really the operational aspects of government. I thought, I still believe there’s a lot that can be done, there’s a lot that should be done. And I think most of the challenges that we all have with government operations, aside from the political games that are taking place, but just getting things done on time, is really a question of leadership and making sure that the people who are doing the work are appreciated, but also more importantly, their supervisors understand what their jobs are, what their roles are, and that they are actually working. I found it both challenging, but also something that I enjoyed doing, because I felt that you’re getting something done, you’re actually improving the operations of government, and that means improving the way you’re able to deliver services to the public.

BFB: You’ve been a Howard County resident for a long time, and as best I know there’s not a lieutenant governor’s mansion in Annapolis, is there?

BR: And I’m quite sure Lieutenant Governor Aruna Miller is living in the house where she pays the mortgage. So same thing with me. I was commuting from Columbia to Annapolis, or wherever you know I needed to be that day.

In November 2023, Rutherford and Hogan shared a stage together to discuss how to bridge political divides at a major event hosted by Rutherford’s new firm, attracting an audience of hundreds to the main auditorium at Howard Community College. It was several weeks before Hogan announced his Senate run.

BFB: A couple months ago, I saw you on stage, when your firm put on an event that had your former political partner, Governor Hogan, talking about bridging the [political] divide and bringing people together. Is this the kind of visibility you were looking for?

BR: I did not know that side of Paul [Skalny] when I came here, that he wanted to do these kind of events. Once coming over, Gov. Hogan said “If there’s anything you need, if you want to have something at the firm, kind of a meet and greet, I’m willing to do that.” All of this is before the Senate run. He did say he was willing to come and do a question and answer…As we started getting information out about it, and people started signing up, it got larger than we were anticipating. It kind of grew – and even the governor said ‘I thought it would just be at the firm with maybe 15 or 20 people; sitting around and talking.’

Supporting Hogan, bypassing Trump

BFB: Do you have any involvement in the Senate race, beyond being a supporter of the former governor?

BR: I’m helpful. I’m definitely not on the paid side of it. I had lunch with him today as a matter of fact. He was here in Howard County. We had lunch over in Elkridge at a place called Rathskeller….I had never been. The guy who owns it went to Hammond High School, and was there the same time my middle child was there. I’m helping where I can.

BFB: Larry Hogan got a lot of national attention recently with his comments after the Donald Trump criminal conviction.

BR: He actually issued his comment before the jury verdict, saying no matter how it goes, we should respect the process. The RNC and Laura Trump, she came out blazing…But I heard Sununu of New Hampshire saying her comments were ridiculous, and that Larry’s a good guy, and the governor did a great job in Maryland and will be a great senator. I saw that one of the Texas senators, Cornyn, was also supportive. So it’s just Trump, and Trump world.

BFB: Do you and Larry Hogan hold the same opinion about Donald Trump?

BR: We are both pretty much in the same place. You know, the press doesn’t pay much attention to what the lieutenant governor says, unless you say something really crazy, but I was quoted in one of the papers before [Hogan] had come out against Trump saying that I’m not supporting Trump. But this was all during that first primary [in 2016]. Larry was very strongly supporting Chris Christie. I like Chris Christie. I kind of stayed out of the primary because I’m also a Bush kind of person.

BFB: But a lot of people who were opposed to Trump at the beginning have changed their support.

BR: Yeah, that’s true. I do know people who were opposed to Trump, and I know a couple of people who have said they would never invite him to dinner with their family; they would not want to entertain with him; they don’t want him around their grandkids; but they’ll vote for him. They just felt that for particular issues, they were more in line with his issues than they are with him as a person, and they would vote for him. I have a hard time making that separation.

BFB: So you would not vote for him, based on what you’re saying?

BR: I don’t plan to vote for him. I don’t know what I want to do, because I don’t care for Biden either. I think Biden is well past his prime, and I’ll just say it, I don’t think he was ever the sharpest knife in the drawer when he was a senator. And so I just don’t know what I’m going to do. I’ll probably skip that line.

BFB:  So what I hear you saying is, if circumstances change, you might not rule out a return to public service?

BR: I mean, you never say never.

Communicating during emergencies

BFB: What’s your thoughts on the trial by fire that Wes Moore and Aruna Miller had to deal with with the Key Bridge collapse, and how they handled that?

BR:  I think he’s done a good job. In those situations, the state has a role, but it’s really a secondary role, because you’re not really doing the cleanup. But in terms of getting information to the public, that is probably the biggest thing and the best thing that he has been able to do. And being able to offer assistance to those displaced workers was something that was good and timely, so that the folks who were going to be out of work for a period of time, or at least reduced work, that they can know that they’re not having to sacrifice too much during that period of time. So I would say it was a good, particularly as it relates to informing the public and letting the public know what’s going on.

BFB: So is your wife happy right now? Has she been happy for the past year with the current setup?

BR: I’d say she’s been pleased. I joke that she doesn’t treat me any better, given that I decided to follow her wishes and not run. But I don’t get any better treatment out of it. But I think she’s she’s pleased, and we are just completing a kitchen renovation, so she’s pleased that she convinced me to cough up the money for that.

P. David Bramble has become the public face of the Inner Harbor, and, along with it, the future Downtown Baltimore. He assumed this consequential position himself, but it’s not quite clear how much he relishes the role.

Bramble, 47, is co-founder and managing partner of Baltimore-based MCB Real Estate, a growing firm with extensive assets in Maryland, Virginia, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Florida and Massachusetts — spanning residential, retail, mixed use, office and industrial properties. His firm grew its Baltimore holdings in a big way by purchasing Harborplace through a court-governed process after a previous owner declared bankruptcy.

In one breath, Bramble — raised in West Baltimore before attending Princeton and University of Pennsylvania law school — says he and his firm need the Harborplace project “like a hole in the head.” But in the next, he says he is committed to replicating and eclipsing the excitement that Harborplace generated as a landmark waterfront destination in the 1980s and making the Inner Harbor a place for all of Baltimore to spend time, and just as attractive as The Wharf in DC. or similar projects in Singapore and Copenhagen.

After the receivership purchase, MCB hired architects and planners, solicited input in community settings and unveiled its vision in a master plan released in late 2023. Features include a new park, amphitheater, a resilient waterfront promenade with garden islands, a distinctive commercial building called the Sail, and twin residential towers of 32 and 25 stories apiece with up to 900 apartments. The plan will cost close to $1 billion to execute, with $400 million in public money for the public portions. The concept has been embraced by Mayor Brandon Scott, Gov. Wes Moore, and members of the City Council and General Assembly. In November, Baltimore voters will be asked to approve a charter amendment that lets the residential towers get built.

But other reviews have been mixed, particularly from established developers and architects. Critics say the design process was rushed, and the results are not special enough. Some have asked for a reboot. In an interview with Baltimore Fishbowl executive editor David Nitkin, Bramble embraced and defended the plan, even as he said some elements could change as community discussions continue. Fishbowl is presenting this Big Fish discussion in two parts. [Part I can be found here.] This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: Looking across the country, or even across the globe, what are your favorite or your inspirations for successful waterfronts in other cities? [The Harborplace master plan lists the Research and Development District in San Diego, HafenCity in Hamburg, Germany and Copenhagen Harbor in Denmark as successful models, among others.]

David Bramble: Baltimore is so unique because a lot of those are riverfronts. So that you basically have one straight line, a lot of them don’t have as much waterfront capacity as we have. And think about it, we have one connected park that goes all the way around the water. I don’t think any of those districts match that; maybe Singapore, which I think is probably the most similar in size. What you’ll see is that we took a lot of different concepts from a lot of different places. And look, there were some things that people really leaned into, right? Like when we did the communication process, we would put pictures up of these different things, and have people come and say, ‘I want to see something that looks more like this.’ And that helped us sort of think about what would be interesting. And I’ll note that all of these are mixed-use. There isn’t anything that’s just one big old park for the reasons that we just talked about in terms of it doesn’t create enough economic activity, which is what we’re most in need of in Baltimore City.

Singapore’s very interesting. When Singapore was redoing its waterfront, they actually sent their delegation here to Baltimore to understand what we did. Obviously, this was years ago … and their harbor actually is very similar now. Their development density is on a whole other scale.

BFB: How many of these have you been to yourself? And I see that The Wharf in D.C. is on your list of models or templates.

DB: I have been to most of the U.S. ones on the list. I was literally at The Wharf a couple of weeks ago… It’s great. It’s lovely. I mean, there’s some elements to it that don’t make it as cool as what we can do because you can’t go as high. You have the fish market, which is kind of cool. But the rest of it is a little fancier. Or really, someplace where everyone feels like they should be there, not just people who are going to buy $100-a-plate dinners. So when you look at the entrance to the Sail building on Pratt Street, to us, that embodies how we’re thinking about this big old entrance archway, framing the [U.S.S.] Constellation. Guess what? I don’t care where you’re from in Baltimore. If you’re walking down the street, and you see that entrance, you’d say, ‘Oh, I’m supposed to go in there and see what’s going on.’ And that’s what we’re going for. The Wharf is a little bit more enclosed but still awesome. It’s absolutely beautiful, and there are elements from that I think we want in terms of the entertainment – and the retail is critical.

Walkability as a driver of retail success

BFB: Let’s talk a little bit more about retail. Retail hasn’t been all that successful in the existing pavilions already on the street. What are the elements of making retail successful right now?

DB: There are multiple issues. One is these were originally built as festival marketplaces [with small vendors]. That concept has waned. The original plan was that, and that worked great. Then, over time, as this went from being 100 percent Rouse to becoming a part of a mall company, effectively, they just filled it up with mall retailers, and…those businesses changed dramatically and a lot of them don’t even exist anymore. And the ones that do have realized that they don’t need waterfront real estate with paid parking. So if you’re going to buy a T-shirt from a standard retailer, you’re not going to go down to the harbor to do that. Really that doesn’t make any sense…One of the big issues that you have now is you have no walkability. And that’s one of the things that makes Pratt Street challenging — it’s basically a highway, and people are mostly using it to speed through downtown. There’s no attraction to walking on the street. It’s hard to cross the street, or it’s like taking your life into your own hands. So we think in order to make this successful, you’ve got to — and this goes beyond our plan for Harborplace and is talking to the larger plans that we want — we’re hoping that the city and other stakeholders will buy into this idea of making Pratt Street a more pedestrian-friendly street. Light Street goes to as many as nine lanes. That’s silly; you don’t need nine lanes. You can still move the traffic through relatively easily [with a smaller number]. What you want is streets that people can walk on. The real idea is what we call double-loaded retail on both sides of the street. It’s clear that this is a place that you’re not supposed to speed through. You’re supposed to park someplace and you’re supposed to walk.

BFB: So what you’re saying is you need the infrastructure; that the design for the retail is maybe even more important than what the actual retail is?

DB: Yeah, the retailers will change. The one thing about retail is it always changes. As I say, there was a time when the largest retailer in the world was A&P grocery stores. When I was a kid I never heard of Target. Target was something random in the Midwest. Now, it’s the most important retailer. People’s tastes change and things change. But I think that this retail, well done, will stand the test of time because we do plan on going back to the idea of markets, vendors, cool, unique things that you can only find in Baltimore. And there will be national retailers, hopefully, because they help pay the bills. But we don’t want this thing to turn back into what it was before — with Bubba Gump Shrimp Factory. That’s not what we’re looking for. The vibe is definitely much cooler, much more local, much more interactive.

Negotiating games

BFB: David, do developers ask for more than they want? Is it a negotiating game? Does the plan say, alright, we’re at 22 stories because we know we’re gonna get 19 or 18 at the end of the day?

DB: That happens all the time. I can tell you we’re not doing that here. I will tell you it’s a classic developer thing to go in and ask for nine times what you need and settle for less. We’re not doing that here. Because we didn’t start by asking for anything. We started by listening. And honestly, I want more. If I had my way, there would be even more.

BFB: I’ve looked at the plan. I see that you pay attention to — and it’s a term of art — your ‘massing’ studies [that analyze the overall mass of buildings] and then the views of the waterfront that you can access from various points. But are people talking about that and recognizing that you’ve gone in a certain direction for masses of buildings and views of water?

DB: They don’t know. But look, there’s only so much we can do. The thing I can tell you is there’s so much transparency here. It’s all on our website. You can see exactly if you want to read hundreds of pages of documents. It’s all there; you can see how we got from point A to point B to point C; this is how we did it, and you may come to your own conclusions. And I think that if we continue to allow people who have the loudest voices to dominate, then people won’t get to the details. But I will tell you this: I’ve done a lot of these community meetings, and nine times out of 10 at the end, actually, every time at the end, people come up to me and say, ‘I didn’t understand that. Now I do. And I get it.’ And some of them will say ‘I don’t like this,’ or ‘I don’t like that.’ But the large majority of them get it because what’s important to regular people is the ground plane — the ground plane walking along around the ground. To me, if I were still a kid and was brought there, that’s what I care about — what is my experience on the ground plane. And if you see this ground plane plan, if you spend any time with it, you love it. There’s a couple of slides, which I think are awesome, which show sort of the before and after, where you’re looking at loading docks and trash compactors or water. The videos, when you see this stuff, it’s a game changer. You’re like, ‘Holy shit, you can see the Power Plant right from the ground.’ That’s all purposeful. It’s all intentional to make your experience on the ground fabulous. And listen, that’s not to win votes. That’s to make a successful project because what’s going to make this successful is people coming and enjoying it and loving it.

Memories of cracking crabs

BFB: As a young kid, what’s your best Harborplace memory growing up? And do you have any not-so-great memories?

DB: I actually didn’t have not-so-great ones. My best ones were any time family came, our place was Phillips. If any time family or friends came from out of town, that’s where my dad and mom would take everybody. So many memories of going there, and then as kids running upstairs to eat fried dough while the grownups are eating crabs and drinking. So that’s my memory of it. And then other memories are, of course, I think everyone our age has this memory, is that the damn Fudgery. A lot of those guys went to our high school. And they were great.

BFB: You want people still at the end of the day, 10 years from now, to be able to come and eat crabs somewhere at Harborplace?

DB: Crabs are Baltimore’s thing. Yeah, there’s got to be good crabs there. But in the curse of curses for a guy who loves Baltimore, I’m allergic to shellfish now.

BFB: In the development world, people criticize, sometimes, unspecial buildings that are just built to maximize revenue. And some of the criticism out there — this has to be more special than Houston… Houston has massive, big commercial buildings. Have you hit the spot yet where you are convinced this is more special than a traditional downtown development project?

DB: We think so. But look, architecture is like art, right? There’s the practical side of it. And then there’s the side of taste. And so that’s what we have to make those choices. And we love it. Some people like it, some people love it. Some people don’t love it. And then that’s typical.

BF: Do you feel a responsibility, as a Baltimorean, about changing the skyline of the city?

DB: Absolutely. I feel that responsibility. It’s got to be fabulous. Remember, I’ve lived here my whole life. So I will tell you that … the weight of responsibility is massive. We definitely feel it. We are leaning into it. And look, I mean, I think the community engagement process that we started is evidence of that. Right? It’s a recognition of how important the voices of the community are. And my fellow developer friends are definitely not happy with the level of engagement that we’ve done, because it’s expensive, and it takes them all this time. And I’ll tell you what, name another project in the city of Baltimore that had signs on the sides of city buses asking people to come and talk to the developer… I think that’s a first. I bet that hadn’t been done in Miami, done in the country.

BFB: We’re in an election year, you acknowledged. As the charter amendment that’s gonna be on the ballot, what is the campaign going to look like to make sure that that passes?

DB: I actually don’t know… I’m not gonna be talking to people and pushing. But I’m not in the politics business. Obviously, we’re gonna lean into it. We’re gonna provide resources to it. We want this to be successful. Listen, we are a huge investor in the city. And I do mean huge. We are all over the city — in all the big parts of the city. MCB is from the east side all the way around to the west side. We believe that this project is critical for the city. I don’t think there are very many people who have expended the resources that MCB has in neighborhoods and in really hard projects that are community-oriented, as well as big fancy projects by the water. We are, I think, a pretty unique animal in our willingness to engage across the board. So we see this as protecting our investment as Baltimoreans. So we’re really leaning into it.

Part I of the Baltimore Fishbowl Big Fish interview with P. David Bramble can be found here.

P. David Bramble has become the public face of the Inner Harbor, and, along with it, the future Downtown Baltimore. He assumed this consequential position himself, but it’s not quite clear how much he relishes the role.

Bramble, 47, is co-founder and managing partner of Baltimore-based MCB Real Estate, a growing firm with extensive assets in Maryland, Virginia, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Florida and Massachusetts — spanning residential, retail, mixed use, office and industrial properties. His firm grew its Baltimore holdings in a big way by purchasing Harborplace through a court-governed process after a previous owner declared bankruptcy.

In one breath, Bramble — raised in West Baltimore before attending Princeton and University of Pennsylvania law school — says he and his firm need the Harborplace project “like a hole in the head.” But in the next, he says he is committed to replicating and eclipsing the excitement that Harborplace generated as a landmark waterfront destination in the 1980s and making the Inner Harbor a place for all of Baltimore to spend time, and just as attractive as The Wharf in DC. or similar projects in Singapore and Copenhagen.

After the receivership purchase, MCB hired architects and planners, solicited input in community settings and unveiled their vision in a masterplan released in late 2023. Features include a new park, amphitheater, a resilient waterfront promenade with garden islands, a distinctive commercial building called the Sail, and twin residential towers of 32 and 25 stories apiece with up to 900 apartments. The plan will cost close to $1 billion to execute, with $400 million in public money for the public portions. The concept has been embraced by Mayor Brandon Scott, Gov. Wes Moore, and members of the City Council and General Assembly. In November, Baltimore voters will be asked to approve a charter amendment that lets the residential towers get built.

But other reviews have been mixed, particularly from established developers and architects. Critics say the design process was rushed, and the results are not special enough. Some have asked for a reboot. In an interview with Baltimore Fishbowl executive editor David Nitkin, Bramble embraced and defended the plan, even as he said some elements could change as community discussions continue. Fishbowl is presenting this Big Fish discussion in two parts. [Part II can be found here.] This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: Talk to me about your overall vision for the core of Baltimore, what it can be, what it should be, and how Harborplace fits into that?

David Bramble: I think that we are incredibly optimistic about the core of Baltimore, which has sort of been abandoned in some ways. But it’s still the heart of the city and still a key, a cornerstone to the success for the entire city. A lot of people feel or are concerned that Baltimore can’t grow. And I think they’re dead wrong. And the reason we think they’re dead wrong is because Baltimore is the beneficiary of amazing assets that are unique to Baltimore, that can’t move. Its geography is the number one thing — location, location, location, as we say in real estate all the time. And what you have is a city that’s close to Washington D.C., not far from New York, major transportation, trains and airports. You have the only law schools in the state; you’ve got the only medical schools in the state. You have all of this happening here in Baltimore, and massive GDP growth, by the way, for a very small working population.

There’s huge potential here, huge opportunity. And Downtown Baltimore, in our mind, is the key to unlocking it. People haven’t been willing to invest in Downtown Baltimore. And I think there’s been this theory that if you build something here, people will just move from over there. But that, in my mind, is the thinking we have to get away from. We’ve got to lean into growth. And we can grow. We just have to want it. We’ve got to lean into it. And we’ve got to push away all the folks who are constantly saying, ‘Don’t build this here; don’t build taller; don’t build more.’ We’ve got to combat that.

BFB: So as a developer, have things like Harbor East and Port Covington and the Peninsula detracted from Downtown Baltimore? Or was that a sort of natural process to go through to develop other areas?

DB: I think the answer is both. I mean, the reality is that Harbor East and the Peninsula are amazing projects. And what you’ve seen, particularly with Harbor East, is that the people who were in the [Central Business District] moved over to Harbor East.

And that hasn’t necessarily happened at the Peninsula yet. But…if you’ve been there, it’s stunning. They’ve done a fabulous job building an amazing space. And it’s got a bright future. However, the reality is there’s room for all of it. If we believe in growth, this is a city designed for well over a million people, with a half a million or so [residents now], and declining. The reality is this city could be filled with two million people if we really wanted it. The question is, as a city, as a state, as a region, are we going to lean into our economic engine, which is Baltimore? And the thing is, all the assets are here, we just have to say we’re going to leverage it. And we’re not going to focus on things that stand in the way of growth, particularly because the best way to help the people who have been here for all these years, and people like me who have lived in these neighborhoods, is to grow. It’s not to shrink.

‘The place you want to go’

BFB: When I’m looking at the media, since the plan was released, critics have come out. It’s easier to criticize things than to propose things, but how do you respond to the criticisms that have come out or the critiquing of the project?

DB: I have no problem with criticism. I think it’s good. And I think it’s part of the process. I think people didn’t really understand the process. The process was first, listening. That’s all we did. We listened to people all over the city, and not just fancy people, who generally get to decide everything. We listened to everybody. We went to people in ZIP codes that were shocked that someone talking about downtown Baltimore and the waterfront wanted to talk to them about what they wanted to see. And I think there were people who felt, ‘Why are you including so many people in the process of doing it?’ We’re doing it for a lot of reasons. One, we were doing it because, obviously, it’s just the right thing to do, considering that this project belongs to the whole city, not just the wealthy neighborhoods that border it. And for it to be successful, we need the entire city to buy into it. For this to work, everyone in Baltimore has to be ‘That’s the place you want to go.’ And that’s the feeling we want to create. And part of that process is getting people excited by including them in the visioning. So that’s just step one. That’s listening. Step two, is okay, we heard you, here’s what we think, based on what you said, and based on our opinions, too, because guess what? We listened to you. But at the end of the day, we’re the ones who have to deliver the project. We own the project, right? We paid for it with our own money. This wasn’t a gift from the city. We had to buy the project from another private entity. So it’s a combination of what we heard from people plus what we thought made sense.

Now we are listening. So now it is time for people to say, ‘I don’t like this. I don’t like that.’ That’s the process… Now’s the time to tell us what you don’t like so that we can incorporate things that make sense. And look, we’re not going to do everything. I said from the beginning, we’re not building a Ferris wheel, right? And I probably got a gazillion people saying you should build a Ferris wheel. I mean, people sent me Ferris wheel books and all kinds of stuff. And we said no. But what it does mean is we listen, we incorporate things, we’re talking to people, and the conversation continues. It didn’t end with us presenting the plan. We still are going to community meetings, we’re still presenting the plans. We’re still continuing, modifying the plans. This will go on for some time. So it’s always interesting to me that the critics attack and say, ‘Oh, it’s a sham.’ That’s complete nonsense. This is the process… I could have drawn something first, and then fought with you. But then, when would I be listening? So what we did here is, I think, the way any large-scale private project that includes a public component should be done, which is listen, then present, then we listen again. That’s what we’re doing now. And then ultimately, we hope that the final plans will incorporate the best of our ideas, the best ideas that we think make sense and can work. And then we get a project out of it.

BFB: I think there’s some education component, too, isn’t there? Because I think people think — maybe even I thought — that the Inner Harbor is like a park; it’s public open space.

DB: This is important, because I think this is where everything gets lost. People keep saying, ‘You’re privatizing the harbor.’ The promenade, according to the law, will always be public. All we’re doing is taking private property that we already own and adding more to it. That’s all we’re doing. And I think that that gets lost. Because it’s so easy to say, ‘privatizing the park for rich people.’ And I just want to say that’s not what we’re doing. I understand that people have a visceral reaction. But this is too important for that. People who care about Baltimore really need to peel back the onion. And if you have specific concerns about the project, guess what? We’re right here. Anybody can find us. Like, I got grandmas calling me and talking to me. So we’ll talk to anybody. But I think what people need to understand is that this project is so important. We cannot fall victim to the normal ‘NIMBY, traffic’ hype. Let’s focus on what is really going to create an excellent world-class waterfront.

BFB: When you hear and when you see the writings and thoughts of people who have criticized the project, is there a generational or even a racial component to the opposition or criticism of what’s been presented so far? Of like, ‘Well, hey, we were the people who did it back in the 70s and 80s. And the William Donald Schaefer days were the right way to do things, with the right people doing them.’

DB: I’m not going to speak to what’s in those people’s hearts, because I don’t know. But I can tell you this. I didn’t see any of them at the community meetings. The only critic of the program who came to any community meetings was Ted Rouse [son of original Harborplace developer Jim Rouse]. And I will tell you, the other thing that you should maybe think about too, or we should all be thinking about is, it’s basically the same people over and over again, complaining with massive amplification. Most people that I talked to, even if they don’t love the entire plan, they’re supportive of what we’re doing because they understand how critical this is. People will say to me, ‘Oh, could you make this a little bit different?’ Or ‘Would you do that?’ Or ‘Would you add this?’ And the truth is sometimes yes. And sometimes no, because there’s a practical component to all this, which is weaving economic sustainability with creating this world-class project. We have to weave them all together to execute, and you can’t get everything you want. And no, we’re not going to turn it into one big park. Because it’s private. We paid for it, we own it. And I think that the most laughable thing I hear all the time is you should do an RFP. And I said, ‘People, we did do an RFP. We did a private RFP for our private property.’ I want to ask people if you want me to come to your house and just do an RFP for your house and tell you what you should do with it? That’s not how this works. So I think that there are certainly people who are more resistant to change than others. And I don’t know what the full sources of that are. But I can tell you, from our experiences and the people we’ve talked to, which is tens of thousands of people we’ve heard from, it’s generally positive.

BFB: And cities like Baltimore should be concerned about taking properties off the tax rolls?

DB: Well, it’s even worse because here’s the problem. And I’ve tried to explain to people. Cities all over the country, and indeed all over the world, are in an existential crisis post-COVID, and downtowns in particular. And we need to reimagine our downtown. And valuations are already falling through the floor. No one wants to be down there. And if you really want to create an exciting, vibrant place, you need mixes of uses. Big, empty office buildings really do nothing for anybody. And so we think Harborplace and redeveloping in this massive and internationally amazing way will then drive value for all the surrounding assets, many of which we own, and which will then create more tax revenue for the city. So in our mind, this billion dollars that we spend here between the public and the private pieces will then drive billions more in investment in downtown Baltimore.

Signature elements

BFB: You said, ‘I’m not building a Ferris wheel.’ I get that. Is there a signature or landmark that will be part of Harborplace? Is it the gondola that you see crossing the harbor on a drawing? Is it the “Sail” building? Is it those floating islands – the sundecks?

DB: We think there are multiple things that are signature. We think, number one, that the Waterfront Partnership and its partners have done an amazing job advancing cleaning up the harbor. The waters are the anchor, and we expect that this water will ultimately be usable and swimmable, so we’re excited about that. We think some of the floating wetlands are going to be amazing and cool and sort of integrate with what the aquarium is doing. We think that, obviously, the Sail building that we had designed — the architect that put that together was designated, I think, the most innovative architect in the world in 2022…The concept is a marketplace and an outdoor park, because you’re able to use the exterior of the building… There’s definitely some signature moments.

BFB: I feel like that Sail building hasn’t gotten enough attention. People talk about Pratt Street and the 900 residential units … but people aren’t talking about that building. Do you agree, or no?

DB: It gets a lot of attention, okay? It just doesn’t get attention in the newspaper because the negative stuff gets the attention in the newspaper. But I hear all the time, ‘I love this.’ Many people even call me and say, ‘I don’t want the apartments, but I love the Sail building.’ And to get the Sail building, I’ll live with the apartments.’ But the funny thing about the apartments, in particular, is it really doesn’t impact anybody on the ground. Most people in Baltimore, unless you live in those apartments, you’ll be walking along the ground. You’re not going to be looking up to see that there’s apartments above. And the apartments above create all the people who will help support all the things below and keep it alive and vibrant. That’s sort of how to think about it. And I’ll tell you, I think the feedback on the Sail building has been absolutely incredible. You know, there’s always critics, and there’s a couple of people who have said, ‘Oh, it’s facing the wrong way,’ or ‘Do this’ or ‘Do that.’ And there’s lots of stuff that will happen between now and when the buildings go vertical. But I would say to you that the feedback on that has been incredible.

BFB: And the Sail building gets built with private funds?

DB: The parks and the public space will be public and be financed publicly, and go through a public process. The buildings will all be private.

BFB: 301 Light Street with the sort of cool mushroom structure?

DB: Yes, that’s a public park. And that we’re calling that the Park at Freedom’s Point. And that is especially meaningful. And I’ve said, many times, I grew up here in Baltimore City, went to city public schools, never heard once until I got involved in this project that Baltimore was a huge port for shipping slaves in the Deep South… But then on our team, we had our Sulton Campbell Britt & Associates, which is one of the oldest Black architecture firms. Their role was the historical context. And the thing that they revealed to us, which I think is kind of part of Baltimore’s comeback story, is that Baltimore once had the largest population of free Black slaves in the country… I didn’t know that; no one taught me that. And it’s something you should lean into, right? There’s all these opportunities around African American tourism. You’ve got first shots in the Civil War. You have the Reginald F. Lewis Museum. You have this amazing history of civil rights. I mean, Thurgood Marshall went to the church that I grew up going to. And you have Parren Mitchell, who lived across the street from me when I was growing up. So you have the Mitchell family, you have all these things in Baltimore that we should lean into… It’s exciting stuff, we got to lean into it. People will come here, they’ll come downtown… And then we’re saying, hey, while you’re here at this place that is built in memoriam for all of the freed slaves that lived around Baltimore, check out the restaurants, the Lewis museum, go to West Baltimore. You know, learn about the first shots in the Civil War, learn about when Lincoln ran through Baltimore, like learn about those things. And, you know, add more to your trip besides grabbing some delicious crabs and beer. So we’re excited about that.

BFB: How long does it take to build out this vision? 20 or 25 years?

DB: Dear Lord, no. We have a referendum in November. And then it will take us 12 to 18 months from then to go from design, which is what we have now, to actual construction drawings that somebody can build for us. So we’ll start construction in a couple of years, and then it’ll the build out will take another four or five years after that.

It all needs to happen at once

BFB: What’s the best way to stage this?

DB: The construction [order and timing] will depend on a lot of things that aren’t finalized yet. But generally, you know, on a project like this, you want to deliver as much as you can at one time. Because you want to encourage the use of the assets as quickly as possible. However, there’s lots of different factors that go beyond, it’s mostly technical stuff.

BFB: Let me rephrase the question: Is it better to build something like the amphitheater first and get the program running, so people say ‘Hey, this is awesome,’ and the community says ‘I can enjoy this space,’ versus what you need to do to get the revenue streams going?

DB: Well, they both need to happen. If they’re not both committed and financed, we won’t do it. So there’s not going to be a ‘Hey, we build this, and then maybe we’ll move forward.’ … It won’t work unless it all happens. Now, the timing of what goes first and when, that will be determined by technical factors about staging construction equipment and timing of unions, etc.

BFB: What you’re saying is you will not build this unless you have a commitment to do everything. The parks, the public spaces, the realigning of the Pratt Street corridors?

DB: Correct. So we have a lot of work to do. Listen, I gotta tell you something. Deals of this scale don’t get done by pussyfooting. You’re either going to go all in, and you’re going to bring resources to the table, and you’re going to do what’s necessary, or you’re not. And this requires scale. It requires a lot of expertise. And so it’s one of the reasons, when I hear people say, ‘Slow down, do this,’ I want to say to them, the process is already slow. It’s going to take all this time and we are spending a ton of money, right? Those designs, they don’t just show up for free. The community engagement process, that doesn’t happen for free… And remember, the buildings were empty when we bought them. Now they’re filled with small entrepreneurs that can’t really pay us any rent. So most of them are getting significantly discounted rent deals to try to live in the place up in the interim and who is footing the bill for that? MCB.

BFB: You call your document a master plan, yes? Typically master plans are kind of a public process driven by government – the city planning department or county planning department says we’re gonna do a master plan for this. Was this really a master plan? How does the private sector do a master plan? And was it the right process to go through?

DB: To be clear, we do master plans all the time for private properties. Cities will typically do master plans for entire regions or areas or huge swaths, and this is a master plan for a small area, which private developers do all the time

BFB: I guess Jim Rouse did a master plan for Columbia.

DB: That’s even bigger and I’m not even talking about that. So our Yard 56 project, before we did that 20-acre site [near Johns Hopkins Bayview in Greektown], we had to do a master plan. You go through the master plan approval process, you get that approved through the planning process, then you have to come back and you have to get each individual building a project. And that’s important. I think there’s a sense of confusion that we’re planning the whole city. And I think that’s just another way for people to sort of try to insinuate there’s something nefarious going on. And honestly, it’s just dumb. …I don’t know how much you know about us. But we need this deal like we need a hole in the head. We want this to happen because it’s the best thing that could happen for Baltimore City. And of all the developers that could step up — this was a public process, everything was public, it was in the courts. The court, even after we agreed to a deal, the court published something that said, ‘Anyone else can come if you want, and challenge the deal.’ Went through that entire process. And now, people say, ‘Do a master plan.’ It doesn’t make any sense. And I think we, as a city, need to get past that and lean into growth. You don’t get everything you want in the deal. I don’t get everything I want… We’ve got to make trade-offs.

Part II of the Baltimore Fishbowl Big Fish interview with P. David Bramble can be found here.

These are trying times for Baltimore’s active and growing Jewish community. Many feel the effects of the current war: they know reservists in Israel who have been activated; they have friends and family huddling in bomb shelters day and night. Antisemitism has been on the rise for years, and is now more prevalent than ever. Baltimore’s Jews grapple with how to show care for the Palestinian people while defending the state of Israel against historic threats.

The Baltimore Jewish Council is at the forefront of these conversations, as an organization that fosters cooperation and understanding and seeks to build relationships and understanding with ethnic, racial and religious groups across the state. Howard Libit has been the executive director of the Council since 2016, and has led the organization as it has advocated for such issues as Holocaust education in schools and vouchers for Orthodox day schools.

He spoke with Baltimore Fishbowl about the crisis between Israel and Hamas and how his organization is navigating the current crisis. Prior to joining the council, Libit, 51, held a top public affairs position in Baltimore City Hall for Mayor Stephanie Rawlings Blake, and before that was a reporter and editor at the Baltimore Sun, rising from education reporter and becoming the top metro editor. This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: You and I talked about doing a Big Fish interview weeks, if not months ago, and a lot has changed. The Jewish world has changed in the aftermath of October 7. How have you and the people you represent been affected and are dealing with what is going on right now?

Howard Libit: Yeah, the world turned upside down on October 7. The unimaginable happened in terms of the Hamas invasion of Israel, and our community here in Baltimore has so many deep ties to Israel. It was shocking. I’ve heard people describe it as similar to when we woke up here in this country on September 11. And you’re looking around, and you don’t know what to do. You don’t know what’s next. You don’t know what’s coming.

A lot of us felt that way those first couple of days, as you’re hearing these ongoing reports of running gun battles, through towns, kibbutzes near the border. And the impact has been phenomenal. Everybody knows people in Israel, it seems. And even if you don’t individually know someone who was killed, or is missing, you know someone who knows someone — someone there who has kids, or parents who have been called up to be mobilized. You think about 360,000 reservists, that will be like the United States calling up over 11 million people to serve in our military, percentage wise.

I share on a personal level, my kids have gone to Jewish overnight camp for a number of years. And there are some Israeli counselors every summer. These are usually counselors who have just completed their military service. And my kids have kept up with them a bit on social media over the years. And since the attack, they’ve seen virtually all their counselors report being called up and activated for whatever units they were in…. And then there have also been Israeli campers who come over each summer for their camp. And those campers are sharing on social media, another night in a bomb shelter…It is impacting Jewish families here, and that’s why we’re rapidly raising money and trying to educate the community and doing programs and more.

BFB: Let me talk about that with you. What is the role of the Jewish Council right now? What do you see your organization’s role in the coming weeks and months as Israel says this is going to be a lengthy ground offensive. What are your objectives?

HL:  So, you know, speaking up in support of Israel, helping to explain and educate and in a reasonable way. Yes, I’m a big Israel supporter, but I also care a lot about the Palestinians who are dying as a result of Hamas. So it’s everything from speaking to the media, to offering education programs to the community, both the Jewish and non-Jewish community, and being committed to explaining the history of the Israeli conflict. … A number of schools have contacted us realizing they aren’t necessarily equipped to talk about it both to their Jewish students and to their broader community. So we’re doing our best to educate, at an age-appropriate level.

And then there’s the advocacy. The support of our elected officials and our leaders who could set the tone for the community is so important. It was so gratifying the first few days that all of our members of Congress issued statements or social media posts of support, and continue to support and continue to show up. We’ve had a number of large public vigils or rallies that try and demonstrate the community support. I’m not trying to be confrontational. We know there are others who have different points of view, and as long as people are respectful, that’s fine. When it veers into antisemitism — and we’ve seen a spike in antisemitic statements and a spike antisemitic acts and social media postings — we’re trying to combat that as best we can.

I spend a lot of my time working on security issues too. There are huge concerns with a lot of threats on social media…police, locally, state level, federal have all been so supportive…. Our college campuses have been a difficult place. There have been incidents on our campuses, to be sure, but I will say for the most part, it has been largely respectful. Yes, there is a maybe a pro-Palestinian march. But we strongly encourage the Jewish students to stay away, don’t engage. And the same thing when we have a pro-Israel vigil, a rally people who oppose it have generally kept their distance. Free speech is important too. And we try to remind people of that: respectful free speech, not antisemitic, not anti Muslim.

BFB: Is it in any way the role of the Jewish Council and your members to have any kind of dialogue with those who are very pro-Palestinian or those who really strongly believe this is an apartheid state, or the Palestinians are subjugated people? Is that part of the mission?

HL: We have had a number of Muslim partners over the years, and there are times where we’re going to have different points of view about Israel and the Palestinian conflict. And I hope we can get to that point. I have not heard from many of our Muslim partners since this happened. It felt weird for me initially to want to reach out to them and ask them to be sympathetic to us. When the mosque was attacked in New Zealand [in March 2019], I reached out to Muslim partners and I showed up at their vigils and their events to express our sympathy. The same hasn’t really happened here. I’m hopeful we can get to that point. But I will also say that there have been some Muslim leaders in the community who have on social media said despicable antisemitic things. I don’t know how you repair that relationship. I don’t know how you can ask someone who says antisemitic things on social media to then serve on something like an attorney general’s Hate Crimes Task Force. It seems antithetical to me. And those are things we’re going to have to address as we move forward.

BFB: I think unfortunately antisemitism had been on the rise, even prior to this. I mean, from 2016 on.

HL: Yes, the antisemitism is not a new phenomenon. In 2018, we put together a Baltimore Jewish Community Task Force. We launched after having a summit on antisemitism, as it was rising. We never thought we solved it, but it seemed to have fallen into the background. It started surging again, and we came up with a strategy and we’ve been implementing a lot of it, focusing on things like the areas of education, advocacy, allyship and tracking numbers. But in the last month since October 7, it’s like it’s being on steroids: the campus climate, the number of things that are being seen on social media, people feeling afraid. And we see that across the area. So it’s become even a greater priority, speaking about how we can help and how we can educate.

BFB: Since October 7, what are the best ways that the Jewish community is helping Israel and people they know in Israel.

HL: The Jewish Federations in North America — the kind of the broad Jewish community in North America — has launched a campaign with a $500 million target initially…Here in Baltimore, we are raising money as an emergency campaign for humanitarian supplies, and in particular, for Baltimore’s sister city, Ashkelon, which is about seven miles from the Gaza border. We’ve all traveled there multiple times, and we have a close relationship. And they’re close enough where, you know, it’s like 60 seconds to get in the bomb shelter when the siren goes off. Our Ashkelon coordinator lives there. In 2021, in one of the previous Gaza rocket exchanges, her house was hit by a rocket and destroyed. She was actually in town, she and her daughter were in town, and we were sharing stories and marking the 20-year anniversary of the launching of that Baltimore High School in partnership. It wasn’t the celebration it was intended, but more a show of solidarity. Her daughter brought me to tears the other night, as she was describing friends who are missing. She’s got friends who were killed, she’s got friends who have gone to the front line, she sleeps every night in the bomb shelter. I mean, it’s a really difficult situation.

There are people from our community, Israelis or people who have served as lDF soldiers who have gone back and signed back up and are part of the reserve army that’s been called up. And others — given all the reservists who have been called up, other people need to fill in to cover some of the jobs they were doing. You know, if the the 24-year-old whose job was stocking the grocery shelves is now on the front line, a 50-year-old could take some time off of work here and go there and take on that job to make sure the grocery store can still function. It’s really an all hands on deck…. I wear a blue ribbon on my shirt to remember the hostages, and this week, here in the community we did a Taylor Swift-type thing with little bracelets, each one for a different hostage. And then we’re doing an empty-table Shabbat, which out in front of the lawn of one of the synagogues — a shabbat table for 240 with the hostage’s photo attached to each chair…. And in addition to the regular chairs, unfortunately, they’re on the high chairs and the booster seats for the babies and children who are being held hostage.

BFB: And when you do that, I would imagine based on the world we live in, you’re going to have to notify the police department, in the city or county.

HL: Every synagogue in our community now has security whenever they have Shabbat services, or during many other times. All of our buildings do. Armed security has become one of the costs of doing business in the Jewish community. And it’s not just in the last month. It’s been for a long time. But you know, it is stepped up and a number of synagogues and other institutions including ours have added some additional guards, given the heightened concerns and tensions that are happening now.

BFB: And you must think it could be months if not years before you and people in the Baltimore Jewish community can safely return to Israel?

HL: There are going to be leadership missions going to Israel. We are not staying away. We’re going to show our support. There will be trips to Israel coming soon. My daughter is supposed to spend a month next summer in Israel. This is the year, where between sophomore and junior year, the kids spent a month in Israel instead of going to summer camp. Do I think she’s going? I don’t know the answer to that yet. Are we going to be able to send the students from the Elijah Cummings youth program to Israel this summer for the month they spent there between their junior and senior year of high school? Previously, I think it was 2016 or 2017, we paused for a year due to safety. And then we sent two cohorts the following year. So that’s hopefully possible. I mean, also, obviously, during the pandemic, we paused for a couple of years, and then sent a couple of cohorts this past summer or two summers ago.

BFB: Let’s transition to talking about the Baltimore Jewish community a little bit more broadly. It seems to be very large and very diverse, and maybe one of the more vibrant Jewish communities in the East Coast or in the nation. How do you view the Baltimore Jewish community or what’s its sort of reputation nationally?

HL: The Baltimore Jewish community has a couple of hallmarks I think, when you talk to peers across the country. Number one, it is among the more diverse Jewish communities in the sense of diverse levels of religious observance. We are basically, ballpark, one-third Orthodox, one-third Conservative and one-third Reform. And then I jokingly say, and like one-third Jewish but not so religious that they are going to get involved. I know, that’s four thirds. But we have a very strong and thriving orthodox population, but the other thing that really makes Baltimore unique is we all sit at the same table, and we all work together. In many other communities, the Orthodox Jewish population is not really part of the mainstream Federation system. They may operate separately, and they’re not really part of it. Here, the Orthodox community is a wonderful part of our leadership and part of what we do. My current board president is Orthodox; the chair of the board of the Associated is Orthodox. We are very respectful of all levels of people’s observance.

BFB: Why is that? How did it evolve that way, do you think?

HL: I think the growth of the Orthodox community really helped fuel it. And the leadership in Baltimore at the time embraced it, rather than walling it off. And embrace some of the issues they embraced, figuring out ways to help support the day schools that are so important to the Orthodox Jewish community and to bring them on board and to be worried about their issues. And I think that really worked out. I think it was a smart decision.

BFB: Does that not affect someone like you and your position? I believe policy positions of that one-third that are Orthodox would tend to take you a little bit more to the right, maybe a little more conservative.

HL: That’s a fair statement. There are times when we try and represent consensus views of the Jewish community. And there are times consensus doesn’t mean unanimous…. I don’t try to take a position when I think the community is 51-49. I’ll give you a couple of examples. I know our support for vouchers for private schools is not necessarily supported universally across the Jewish community. But I think enough people who have are strong believers in public schools have also come to understand that, and we’ve worked hard to educate on this, that supporting the current relatively minor amount of money going to vouchers is critically important to a segment of our community that doesn’t have a lot of money and needs that support. Remember, these vouchers are only going to low-income families. And yes, there is poverty in the Jewish community too, and they need that help. It’s not going to wealthy Orthodox families. It’s going to families who meet those kinds of financial tests we all have.

Another example: same sex marriage. There are obviously some synagogues that are fully supportive of it and others that are not. When that debate came up here in Maryland, we simply stayed neutral. We stayed out, and let synagogues do what they want. Some put up large rainbow-colored support banners in front of their synagogue lawns. Fine, great. We just didn’t take a position on that.

BFB: Is there an analog? Is the Archdiocese of Baltimore sort of like the equivalent to the Baltimore Jewish Council? Is there an analogue to other faiths in your organization?

HL: You should look at the Associated and Catholic Charities as being somewhat comparable, although Catholic Charities has more hands-on things they’re doing. I mean, the Archdiocese is more the religious structure. We do some lobbying work. So that falls under the Catholic Conference, maybe. But that’s not a great analogy in terms of what we do.

The Baltimore Jewish Council is kind of an outlier, even within other Jewish communities. Most Jewish communities have what’s called the Jewish Community Relations Council, and many, many places it’s a one-man show. They’re not an independent agency. I’m an independent 501-c3, largely supported by the Associated. But I have a team of 10. We have worked together and are able to handle things like Holocaust education and commemoration and leading the fight on antisemitism and Israel education and advocacy. Three of us are registered lobbyists in Annapolis. It’s really important and gratifying work that we’re able to do that I think we’re all proud of.

BFB:  You’ve been there seven and a half years. What does, for you, professionally, success look like?

HL: If success meant that antisemitic incidents was going down, I’d be a giant failure I guess. I think our advocacy has been really successful, particularly in terms of it as we face this surge of antisemitism, persuading the state to create programs to provide security grants for faith institutions, and schools that are at risk of hate crimes. I look at things like that, things like helping to bring resources to our agencies helping vulnerable citizens. I look at our advocacy work in terms of building interfaith relationships, and building deeper ties across different communities and also building deeper ties within the Jewish community, across our different Jewish communities.

And are we successfully educating on Israel? Are we successful and helping to make sure we commemorate the Holocaust and that we educate about it. We spent a lot of time trying to get the state to do more related to Holocaust education and antisemitism education with some some success. We’ve gotten the state school board to update the curriculum standards. Next up, we got to figure out how to better train the teachers to implement those standards … And I love the work we do with our Elijah Cummings youth program in Israel. For 25 years now, we have built an amazing cohort of young people who go to school, who live in Maryland’s 7th Congressional District, largely students of color, who have successfully done leadership training, service training, spent time in Israel, and built deeper relationships between Baltimore’s black and Jewish communities.

Jonathon Heyward is blazing musical trails across Europe and the United States, and fortunately for our city, has chosen Baltimore as his primary musical home as music director of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra starting with their 2023-24 season.

Born in Charleston, South Carolina, the 31-year-old started playing cello at the age of 10 and began conducting soon after. He attended the Boston Conservatory of Music, became assistant conductor of the school’s opera department and of the Boston Opera Collaborative. Heyward was mentored by none other than Sir Mark Elder and named a fellow of the Royal Academy of Music — an honor reserved only for Academy alumni.

He holds three prestigious positions, not as a struggling musician trying to make ends meet, but as a heavily in-demand rising star in the classical music world. Heyward is Chief Conductor of Germany’s Nordwestdeutsche Philharmonie, Music Director of Lincoln Center’s Summer Orchestra (which is transitioning from the Mostly Mozart series into a new format and focus), and now music director of the BSO.

Following Marin Alsop’s 14 years directing the orchestra, Heyward is also a first in many ways. He is the first Black conductor to lead the BSO, and the youngest. Alsop was the first woman to lead the orchestra, or any major American orchestra. She was the first woman to win the Koussevitsky Prize for conducting, and the first conductor to win a MacArthur Fellowship. Heyward is excited to be taking the baton from her, as it were, and is as open to Baltimore making its imprint on him as he hopes to begin creating his relationship with Baltimore — through music and more.

Heyward spoke with Baltimore Fishbowl from Milan, where he was touring with Nordwestdeutsche Philharmonie, about everything from his love of Mahler to his affinity for Old Bay, and of course, the Converse Conductor origin story.

This conversation has been minimally edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: You’re in Milan right now with the German orchestra. Is that right?

Jonathon Heyward: Yes, one of my three jobs.

BF: One of your THREE jobs, I know! So one of my questions is that it’s my understanding that it’s unusual in the United States for the large metropolitan orchestras to have an American conductor. We have sort of a bias toward European conductors. Is it equally unusual in Europe to have an American conductor?

JH: I think it’s actually quite normal for anything connected to a European orchestra to be having music directors from America, actually. It’s a funny backwards situation, I think. I think it’s a little bit of exoticism on both sides, if I can dare say, which I’ve always sort of noticed even as a kid growing up that I never saw an American conductor really conducting an American orchestra. Only a few exceptions. James DePreist is one of them of course in Oregon, and MTT (Michael Tilson Thomas) in San Francisco, but yeah, partly I think it’s always exciting to them. Everyone wants something a bit different.

BF: We’re very excited to have you in Baltimore and what we would love to know is, while the last decade-plus with Marin Alsop has been very exciting for us, how are the next few years going to become the Jonathon Heyward years? How are you going to put your signature on Baltimore and the symphony, and the symphonic music scene in Baltimore?

JH: Well, I think it’s really it starts with Baltimore itself. I mean, I’ve had a great pleasure of the year and a bit of time as music director designate to understand what Baltimore needs from us as the largest arts organization in Maryland, and I think it’s really important to start with that. I think my inspiration for being a music director of the symphony orchestra has always been one that I feel as music director, you’re an ambassador for the city in which your music director and I don’t take that responsibility very lightly. I think there’s so much culture and so much actually beautiful history that Baltimore has that we as an organization can really support and have that sort of Baltimore pride as part of the sort of bedrock of what we what we do artistically. And with a vision that amplifies that, and so, I think I like to think that we’re off to a good start in a lot of ways because we have James Lee III, who is of course, a Baltimore based composer who was the first piece in our program for our subscription series concerts. And of course, we then just continue our relationship with him as composer-in-residence for the 24-25 season. So, it’s elements like that, that I think I’m so excited to even get to know Baltimore further so we can really embed that into the sort of artistic vision as an organization and as a symphony orchestra.

BF: I remember you reading an interview with you, wherein you talked about the importance of getting stringed instruments into the hands of children, elementary school children, if they’re going to really develop a love for symphonic music. Do you have any plans or any hopes to try to make inroads in that scene in Baltimore? Is that is that something you’re interested in exploring?

JH: It’s not only in my interest in exploring, it’s my huge responsibility as an artist as an artistic leader, to make sure that we have an arts organization really sort of have that as a part of our vantage point when we develop our vision. And of course, I have the great luxury of continuing this fantastic program, the BSO OrchKids program, which my predecessor, Marin Alsop founded. And now in its, I believe, 15th year now going on to 16th year it’s an amazing vehicle to enhance, and make sure it has great foundation for many for the next 15 years and to thrive and grow with different programs, larger programs, more expansive programs, not only in Baltimore, but in the surrounding area. And we dedicate a part of our vision to that growth of that program, but also our various other programs that we have in our education department, that has seen thousands of school students a year in every season that we that we have. So that’s a huge part of the discussions that we often have with my education team in the BSO and the greater area of Baltimore already.

BF: What do you think the barrier is? I never understood why stringed instruments were so — not off limits or taboo, but why it seems like it was such an effort to get them into young hands in public schools. Is it an expense issue, or is it that it’s hard to find teachers who are comfortable?

JH: Yeah, I mean, I think it starts with leaders and leadership. We have to make sure that school boards and principals see the full concept of why it’s important to continue these programs to be able to nurture a whole student’s potential. I can say, and I do, until I turn blue in the face, that when we when we’re talking about music in the curriculum, we’re not just talking, we’re not necessarily asking for the potential of the next symphonic musicians, though it would be nice. What we’re really acknowledging that through numerous amounts of studies, music in part of a curriculum develops a much more well-rounded education. And there are numerous studies. We all know this. But until we really convince the powers that be, which we’re working on, even as an organization, that this is really crucial. And this is important, and it’s not just an extra, it’s not just a situation in which we can all think about it when we have money. No. It’s a completely unacceptable to think of it like that. And we’re missing a trick if we do that. So I write letters, often to superintendents, and I’m convincing our education department to have a Principals Night where we get as many principals into our hall so they acknowledge and see the power of symphonic music. Hopefully then that will inspire them to see the importance of why this needs to be a part of the curriculum. It’s not a question. It should just be embedded. So, I think for us, we’re targeting the powers that be in order to support this. The teachers —

BF: The teachers know.

JH: Yeah, the teachers know, but they need support in that way.

BF: Interesting. I want to make sure I talk about what your plans for the orchestra are, because you’re very well rounded. When you were the Boston Conservatory, you worked with the Opera Collaborative. I went to Mostly Mozart concerts when I was a child and my dad’s cousin was a pianist and played at Lincoln Center, Beethoven’s fourth Piano Concerto at a Mostly Mozart concert and so, these were the concerts I went to growing up. So I guess I would like to know, are you thinking of doing any concert performances of operas? Do you have a composer you’re thinking of doing a retrospective of on? What kinds of creative things would sort of fill your soul for the orchestra?

JH: Yeah, no, thanks for asking. I mean, there are so many, of course, obviously, specific composers whom I’d love to perform and one of them of course, is Shostakovich. Being able to have my debut with the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra and Shostakovich’s last symphony, which they never played before and I’d never conducted, which was a very big risk and I’m a risk taker. So that’s probably the theme of me in general, but that composer is someone that I love. And of course, we’ll be doing the Eighth Symphony towards end of the season which can be really wonderful. Mahler, of course. Mahler is every conductor’s dream composer. And I think you can learn so much from an orchestra and how your relationship is with the orchestra through Mahler’s music, there’s so much in it, you know? We do have an opera company in Baltimore, and they of course are a strong organization. However, I think we can also help support opera in Baltimore and I’m looking forward to being a part of that.

BF: Do you have collaborative ideas in mind with The Lyric?

JH: I wouldn’t say directly with them yet. Maybe there could be something, but I would say we are certainly thinking of programming opera as a sort of first step concert, stage sort of thing. And I think also, artistically, the orchestra really have a great sound world for opera, and particularly the works of Verdi, that I’m sort of looking at an opera that I’ve always been inspired by, so stay tuned.

BF: Okay!

JH: But we’re certainly on the precipice of thinking about that, but those are sort of my trajectories. But there’s so much music I love, it’s hard to sort of isolate it all. The composers that I haven’t mentioned, of course, a huge part of the trajectory, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, to continue this thread. And making sure that if I’m not conducting it, certainly we get guest conductors to kind of fill in those holes, if you will.

BF: Veering away from the orchestra, is there anything about Baltimore that excites you? That you’re interested in learning about? We’re talking about what you’re giving to Baltimore, but what can Baltimore give to you? Are you a sports guy? Are you an art guy? Do you love food? Is there is there a neighborhood that intrigues you?

JH: Yeah, yeah, I mean, there’s a lot there. And I think as I sort of continue to explore, it’s been very fun. I mean, my first pitch out for the Orioles was amazing, and very, very fun. And just being a part of all these organizations is something that I am interested in because I want to get to know Baltimore more, and I think being able to just be embedded in all aspects of it, whether that be sports, arts museums, and of course, I mean, the food scene, I just love.

BF: Are you a crab fan?

JH:  I am a HUGE crab fan. So Old Bay seasoning has always been my favorite.

BF: Is that right? Well, you grew up in Louisiana? Didn’t you grow up in the South?

JH: Charleston, South Carolina.

BF: Oh, I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry, South Carolina.

JH: Charleston, South Carolina. But that direction. Yeah, no, I mean, I grew up with seafood, being in Charleston. So, yeah, I feel right at home in Baltimore in a lot of ways. But I think also just being a part of the sort of creative scene, I’ve been in Mount Vernon a lot of the time, where I’m staying, and we’re eventually getting more permanent housing really soon, but, being able to see and walk to work and have conversations with some of these most incredible audience members, but also creatives. I’ve met so many faculty from Peabody, faculty from BSA (Baltimore School for the Arts) and just had wonderful, relaxed conversations about art, life, music in Baltimore, it’s so wonderful. It’s the openness and I think the only thing I would say is please just continue the openness. I mean, I love the sort of open communication that I’ve had so far with everyone. And long may it continue, because I think that, that all these small conversations help inform my vision and direction for where I think the orchestra should go. And so that’s the only thing that I would say that Baltimore could, quote unquote, give to me, which is the continued love and support and openness and kind of communication. And it’s already been given to me since the beginning of my mantle, really.

BF: I gotta ask, I can’t let this go without asking. Are you going to wear the Converse when you conduct? Do you wear the Converse when you conduct? Will you please wear the conduct Converse when you conduct?

JH: Well, I have to say it wouldn’t be the first time — I did it in the gala.

BF: Wasn’t there a Golden Converse contest or something? (At Artscape)

JH: I think Whitney will be a testament to that. But it got much bigger than we ever thought it would have gotten. Actually, we had to find more Golden Converse and hide more Golden Converse than we ever thought we would have to in the beginning. And so, I love it. It’s a trademark. I love that it’s sort of a groundbreaker in a lot of ways. It’s about relatability.

BF: Absolutely.

JH: If a pair of shoes can do that in classical music, fine. That’s amazing. Great. Why not?

BF: The converse is a relatability thing. I was dying to ask you about the “Maestro” episode of Seinfeld. If you’ve ever seen that episode of Seinfeld, where Elaine is dating a conductor and he insists everybody call him “Maestro,” even if they’re sitting at the diner, it’s very funny. Do you have a favorite reference in pop culture? Do you have a favorite pop culture conductor thing?

JH: Yeah, I mean, I think my biggest thing is demystifying all of that. Again, it’s just about, at the end of the day, I’m still a regular human being as much as anyone else. My job of course is to bring music together. But I don’t know if you know the story behind the Converse.

BF: I don’t know. I don’t really know the origin story of the Converse. I would love if we could end with that. Give me the origin story.

JH: I’ll just give you the Reader’s Digest version. But basically, I was working as an assistant conductor in an orchestra in the UK. And mainly a lot of my job was education and community concerts. So, one day I was rushing off very, very late for an education concert. And it was five minutes right before, so I had to quickly change. And I realized that I did not bring my formal pairs of shoes. And I had these bright red Chuck Taylors on.

BF: Not even the black ones. They were the bright red ones.

JH: BRIGHT red. I just went to the education director. I said, “I’m really sorry, this is all I’ve got.” And it was two minutes before going on stage. And they said, “Well, you just go on, just do it.” And so, I did it. And normally we always get these wonderful letters about how the concert went from the students. And that week, instead of getting a conversation about music, there were cards about the music, plus, there were these cards with my red Converse. And I just thought it was an amazing moment that again, just broke the barrier of what the stigma is about classical music and/or about a conductor. And I just thought, “Wow, isn’t it amazing that okay, yes, they saw the shoes, but maybe they heard the music differently, in a way. Maybe they heard it in a more relatable way just because I wore a different pair of shoes.” And that sort of spun a lot of ideas about how to break this wall, this imaginary wall that we sometimes have with audiences.

BF: Do you make it a point to wear those when you’re doing the concerts for students?

JH: Yeah, for education concerts I tend to, definitely for education concerts, and Young People’s concerts and at the world famous Amsterdam Concertgebouw. I made my debut there with my German orchestra actually, and was wearing red Chuck Taylors because it was a Halloween family concert and I thought, “Why not?”

BF: Not orange?

JH: It was probably blasphemy to this amazing concert hall. I mean, if you haven’t seen it…

BF: I haven’t. No.

JH: Oh, if you see a picture, it’s one of the most gorgeous, acoustically and aesthetically, concert halls, but there I was making my debut in Chuck Taylors.

BF: Well, you’re going to have to get some orange and black Chuck Taylors for the Orioles. That’s going to have to happen.

JH: Yes, yes.

BF: And add some purple for the Ravens.

JH: Of course!

BF. Well, I am so grateful to you for your time, and I cannot wait to see you in action. I really can’t. Thank you, and I hope you get some sleep.

JH: Tonight is concert, so tonight I’ll be on stage in about two hours. Italians do everything later.

Federal prosecutor Leo Wise, a Baltimore resident, has led major corruption investigations throughout his career. Wise gained fresh national attention recently as the lead prosecutor in the federal criminal investigation against Hunter Biden, who agreed to plead guilty to federal tax and gun charges in exchange for a lenient sentence. Amid questioning, a judge has delayed the plea agreement for 30 days as both sides try to patch over differences. Baltimore Fishbowl is republishing this April 2023 interview with Wise about his recent book.

What began as a suspicion that a Baltimore police officer was aiding a drug dealer led to one of the nation’s biggest police corruption scandals. Leo Wise, an assistant U.S Attorney with a long career prosecuting corruption, was at the center of the investigation into the department’s Gun Trace Task Force. This month, he released a book years in the making: “Who Speaks For You,” an inside look at how the investigation unfolded and the challenges he and his colleagues faced along the way.

Wise is a graduate of The Johns Hopkins University and Harvard Law School, and his trial experience includes delivering justice against the tobacco industry and top executives of Enron, as well as against former mayor Catherine Pugh after the Healthy Holly scandal. Wise won’t see a penny from his book. Federal ethics rules prevent him from profiting, and he has signed away the rights to his work. A Baltimore resident, Wise, 46, took the title of his book from the words spoken by a judge to the jury in the police trial. Judges ask the jury who will speak for the entire panel in rendering a verdict. In the 2018 trial of officers Daniel Hersl and Marcus Taylor, the only black person on the jury was selected as the foreman. Wise knew at that moment, as the verdict was about to be rendered, that the symbolism of the foreman selection meant that he had won the case that cast fresh light on the divide between Black and White Baltimore. Wise spoke recently with Baltimore Fishbowl via Zoom, and the views he expresses are his alone, and not those of the Justice Department or U.S. government.

Baltimore Fishbowl: There have been lots of accounts of the Gun Trace Task Force, including media accounts and two books. What does this book add to the knowledge of this episode?

Leo Wise: I saw it as an extension of my public service. The case shows that the criminal justice system can and does work in really two important ways: One, that the police can be held accountable.

And two…that no one is above the law; that the police are not above the law….[And] no one is beneath the law, meaning the victims that were preyed upon by the Task Force, people who had criminal records, people who lived in certain neighborhoods, people who lived in and around the border land between the drug economy and the legitimate economy, all of those people deserve to be believed, and were believed ultimately by the jury. And I think the book tells that story.

And I think it tells that story in a different way than the other books. I didn’t want to write a ‘bad cop’ story, not to say that that’s what the other books are. But my primary goal was…to talk about the search for the truth.

And that’s really what my book is about. It’s told not chronologically…and it’s not meant to be a history of the Gun Trace Task Force and its role in the Baltimore Police Department. It’s told from the my perspective, from the perspective of how we discovered what these police officers were were doing.

And the themes are really belief and disbelief…why we believe certain people like police officers and why we don’t believe other people, like people with criminal records or people that have broken the law.

The second thing is that geography is destiny, that so much of our life is determined by where we started, in many ways…In my neighborhood in North Baltimore, I’m on these listservs where people complain…that we need more police presence. And in eastern and West Baltimore, what we learned from victims, it was just the opposite: that the police, particularly the Task Force, was this predatory force, that interactions with the community were terrible. And so the last thing they wanted was to see more of these guys.

And then the third theme, is really how we had to flip the playbook to catch them. These were police officers. They were law enforcement, like our FBI agents, so they knew the techniques, they knew how to stay ahead of them. And that posed enormous challenges for how we actually investigated the case…

And so I think those themes and talking about how we found the truth made the book very different from the other two, which I think are terrific, and terrific in their own ways, and distinct from one another in their own way. I read them both. I didn’t read them before. I didn’t want to plagiarize even non-consciously anything. I was afraid if I read something I liked, you know, a scene that I thought was particularly well written, it would sort of bleed into my memory of it. So I deliberately didn’t read it until my book was finished.

BFB: One thing that struck me reading this book was the very methodical and dispassionate way that building a case, investigating and prosecuting works in terms of things like ‘here’s what you need to get a wiretap’ and ‘here are the standards of evidence that you need to follow.’ Did you consciously want to spell that out? Because I think we’re living in a world right now, where there’s a public feeling that….anybody can get a wiretap for anything, or that prosecutions are very politically driven. So did you approach it with wanting to sort of show an audience the very clear steps that needed to be taken to pursue an investigation like this?

LW: The idea for those came from my editor at the Hopkins press, Matthew McAdam, who calls them ‘New Yorker-style asides.’ It was such an interesting process. I first had to figure out what the story within the story was, which ultimately was that it really was about a search for the truth, not just about bad cops.

And then we figured out that it would be told from my perspective, which was not something we originally thought, and that it would be told in the way in which the truth unfolded, and that there would be a kind of layering.

And I’ve struggled to figure out a good metaphor for that. One that I’ve settled on is – it’s like if you’re sketching something in the distance on a foggy day. You sort of take a first stab at it, and you think it’s a lighthouse. And it turns out it’s a person walking in the distance, and as the fog clears, you see the picture, more and more clearly.

Within the construct, Matt thought it would be interesting to explain, when I talk about a wiretap, for instance…pause and describe how we get one, what the standards are, give examples.

And I like that style. I like hearing writers talk about how they write, I think that’s really interesting. The New York Times will do those in the book review (section) those little pieces where they ask people what they read. And the Paris Review does these interviews with authors, and they’ll often describe the room they write in. So I thought that might be interesting to talk about how as a prosecutor, how I do my job. Obviously, this story is the example of it, but then talk about the nuts and bolts of how we get a wiretap, how we get a search warrant.

BFB: I think it was very effective. And I also think it lends a lot of legitimacy to the process. In that regard, were you limited to only things that you had placed in the public record during trial? Was that a limiting factor in writing this book?

LW: So I am limited in that regard. But the way I built the book was so much of it had become public. We had the full trial transcript because two of the defendants did go to trial. The Baltimore Sun had filed a lawsuit to unseal the search warrant applications and wiretap applications, and we didn’t fight that. We agreed.

Then we had so many guilty pleas, which have factual statements attached to them. So those were more facts. We had sentencings, where you write sentencing memos that have more facts. So there was a lot of material, really. All the material I felt I needed was public.

And then what I did, to adhere to the rule that I only use information that is public, is I read and took notes on all of that material, and then only wrote what I could source back to it. So I didn’t look at my own (investigative) notes….I certainly didn’t look at anything that was secret, like Grand Jury transcripts, or FBI interview notes, which aren’t technically secret, but are not public. And I didn’t rely on my memory for really anything substantive. I mean, some of the atmosphere, it’s like, what the room looked like, or that the table squeaks. I mean, that stuff was from memory,

That was also helpful because… it’s funny how memory works. Sometimes you can remember something clear as a bell and then it turns out to be wrong. So it was helpful to have the rigor of saying I can source back when I’m writing to a transcript or a wiretap application or something.

The trial transcripts allowed me to use precise language, which I thought was really interesting, because it’s one thing for me to kind of summarize what someone’s saying, but I really, as a reader, like dialogue. And I really like transcripts. I like reading plays. So I thought that would be interesting for the reader to see, not only what they said, but how they actually said it.

BFB:  What you’re describing is a pretty time-consuming process. How long did it take you to produce this?

LW: The trial ended in the winter of 2018, and I started thinking that it would be interesting to write a book about it. My first trial as a prosecutor, which I described a little bit in the book, was the U.S. government’s civil racketeering case against the tobacco industry. And I thought that would be an interesting book. The second trial I did was against the CEO of Enron, and I thought there would be something interesting there. I just didn’t have the time. I sort of rolled from one case to another. It was really the pandemic that closed the courts…I was still working full time, but I wasn’t working at night and on the weekends, so I just used that time.

I knew nothing about writing a book. It took a while to come up with the proposal where I laid out the story within the story, and what the themes were. And I connected with a writer named Lawrence Lanahan, who was terrific. We would meet, and it was Lawrence who helped me figure out the story within the story. It took a year of trying to write proposal after proposal, and Matt McAdam, my editor, would say ‘This doesn’t quite get there. Let’s try again.’ That went on for a year. And then Lawrence got involved. And then I worked with him for about a year. And then it was really a year of writing and then a year of editing.

BFB: Are you literally getting no money for this? If a law school professor decides to assign this for a class, or you teach a class, do the proceeds go to a foundation or something?

LW: I signed over all the rights; Johns Hopkins University Press owns the whole thing. They sold it for an audiobook, and I don’t get any of that.

BFB: Are you going to read the audiobook?

LW: They let me pick the actor that did it. It’s out and it was released the same day as the book. But they gave me three choices. Apparently, authors all want to do it themselves. And none of them ever get to because they have to audition and their voices are [not as good.] They just got these three actors. I played (the audio of them) for my wife and for my kids. I said, ‘Which voice Do you like?’ And I’m not sure we all settled on the one I picked.

BFB: You touch on this in the book about the Black Butterfly in east and west Baltimore and the ‘White L.’ And you’ve said it, you live in North Baltimore and you’re a White L guy, and not a Black Butterfly guy. But now you’ve been immersed. And your perspective has changed about how geography is destiny. Have you given any thought to how we, as a broader city and region, break down the barrier between the White L and the Black Butterfly?

LW: It’s a great question. I mean, that’s part of why I wrote the book, because I wanted to do that. I use that example of Herbert Tate having cash in his pocket, right. And people that I interact with in my neighborhood, in professional circles — the idea of not having a bank account is like going to Mars.

One of the ways to kind of get to a broader understanding of people’s experiences is what I described as the journey I went on through the book. Because of what I do, I was exposed to it. I think, you know, lots of people in the professional kind of world I’m in and in my neighborhood may not have an opportunity to do that themselves. But I hope that through the book, they can see what I saw and come to a better understanding of the city. They live in the region, (and they can see) the way that people experience the police differently.

BFB: You’ve been a public corruption prosecutor in Maryland for more than a decade. And besides the Gun Trace Task Force, you were involved with former Mayor Catherine Pugh and the Healthy Holly case, a police chief’s tax fraud and Marilyn Mosby. You’re entwined in Baltimore history and the protection against corruption, but do you get despondent over this city and its leadership and our structure?

LW: So the short answer is no. And that’s another reason I wrote the book, I wanted the book — and I hope that this comes across — to be a story of the system working, and how justice can happen and be delivered for less-than-perfect victims, how the police can be held accountable, which I think is such a pressing issue, not only here in Baltimore, but across our country. So no, actually it gave me an enormous amount of hope.

One of the fears I had was I was acutely aware of the fact that if we had failed, that would have made things worse. To have tried and failed, in some ways, felt like it would have been worse than not to have tried at all. And I think I say this in the book, that there was a senior prosecutor who used to remind me that if you’re gonna go after police officers, you better have the goods. And that’s why we tried so hard to develop the evidence to make the case as strong as we possibly could. It’s why we included the overtime fraud, because we thought that was another path to conviction that didn’t take you through East and West Baltimore, or through the testimony of people with criminal records, who might be still involved in selling drugs.

Because we had we had jurors in mind, even before we got to the trial. We were worried that (jurors) would just never believe our victims. That they would just say ‘These were drug dealers. I don’t care that (police) stole their money. If the cops are underpaid, you know, they’re doing a dirty job and a dirty city, sort of pox on all your houses.’ The overtime we thought would be something that appealed to folks that go to work every day, get paid for what they work, pay their taxes.

BFB: You said earlier you like reading about how writers approach this work. What do you read? Has your reading changed as you’ve now become a book author?

LW:  I read almost entirely fiction and have done that for many years. One of the things Lawrence (Lanahan) had me do was read books by other prosecutors. Probably one of the most famous was Vincent Bugliosi, who wrote Helter Skelter about the Manson killings, which was fascinating. And I think the best true crime nonfiction novel, as he described it, ever written is In Cold Blood by Truman Capote.

BFB:  You live in a very serious world. What do you do to unwind? How do you unplug and recharge in your personal life?

LW: So I run and I read. That’s really the habits I developed. I used to travel for the Justice Department. And so I would live out of a suitcase. I spent a whole year in Houston, a whole year in Denver. But you can always always make time to run, and then read. I always have running shoes with me, and a book, and it doesn’t cost anything. Running I would find would be a great way to get to know a city when I couldn’t go on a tour because I was there to work. But I could get out early in the morning or at the end of the day. So I still do that.

Water has shaped Baltimore. Across decades, our city’s waterfront has transitioned from working harbor to tourist destination to bustling mixed-use growth centers. Aquariums and concert spaces have replaced shipping vessels, but the soaring vision that leaders like William Donald Schaefer had for Baltimore’s shoreline has ebbed and flowed like the water itself.

Current attention is focused on how to redevelop the seemingly obsolete pavilions at Harborplace, as well as how to prepare for climate-change induced rising water levels. Working on these issues and much more is an organization known as the Waterfront Partnership, a collaboration of government, business and community partners that provides programming, planning, amenities and more all along the urban waterfront, from the Inner Harbor to Fells Point.

For 17 years, the Partnership has been led by Laurie Schwartz, a respected veteran of city planning and development efforts. Schwartz has overseen the development of Rash Field, the implementation of trash wheels and the planning of an improved promenade that will provide resiliency for the city. She is working closely with developer David Bramble as a redesign for the Harborplace area gets underway.

Schwartz, 70, was inducted into the Baltimore Sun’s Business and Civic Hall of Fame last year, and the paper recognized her for being “unquestionably smart, tenacious and hardworking,” and said her super power was “an uncanny ability to get government and the private sector to work together.”

Schwartz spoke with Baltimore Fishbowl recently about the past, present and future of Baltimore’s signature waterfront. The conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: In 1992, I took a cross-country trip driving south, stopped in Baltimore for the first time, and said “Alright, I gotta get a crabcake at the Inner Harbor.” And then I moved here and started working for The Sun in 1999, and it took me a while to realize that the Inner Harbor and the waterfront is not downtown Baltimore. To me, it felt like the absolute heart of Baltimore. So from your perspective, is it really the heart of Baltimore? How should we, as a city, be thinking of all the land along the water in Baltimore?

Laurie Schwartz: The waterfront in Baltimore as in many cities is the draw for so many people, because of the water being such a unique feature for so many cities and such a special place for so many people. Baltimore was at the forefront of transforming its Inner Harbor portion of the waterfront from an older industrial port to a major recreational asset and tourism draw. Once the Inner Harbor was developed, it became clear that it was a destination and could be for so much more than just visitors and tourists — it was a place where people wanted to live. The key is really making sure we connect the waterfront – the Inner Harbor and other parts – to neighboring areas. Right now, Pratt Street and Light Street do serve as dividers between the Inner Harbor and downtown. And to build on the identity and the strength of the Inner Harbor and the waterfront to benefit neighboring areas.

BFB: That brings up a couple of interesting areas. There have been plans over the years, and you’ve probably been involved in them, about whether Pratt Street should become a boulevard, and maybe be two-way; and what to do with Light Street. You raise connectivity as an issue. Have you been involved in trying to help make those connections?

LS: I’m just advocating for them, and I think the redevelopment of Harborplace and the promenade reconstruction is going to provide the opportunity that we need now to better connect downtown with the Inner Harbor. You know, part of the look that MCB and [developer David] Bramble will be taking — and we will be involved in along with many others — is to look beyond just the ring of the Inner Harbor and look at Pratt Street and Light Street and how to upgrade and enhance those adjacent areas as well. One area that’s been talked about for a long time — and this may be the opportunity — would be to connect McKeldin Plaza to the Inner Harbor, and put the street grid back as it was long ago.

BFB: Rather than a triangle, is that what you are saying?

LS: Yes. And Pratt Street, I’m not an advocate of making it two way. But I do think that it can become an attractive boulevard with slower traffic, more landscaping, perhaps a small median in the center where people can just enjoy the atmosphere, much more than a full five lanes of cars rushing by.

BFB: The Waterfront Partnership is the organizing entity for a special taxing district, is that correct?

LS: Correct. It’s a benefits district.

BFB: So when you look at the map of the Baltimore waterfront, there are neighborhoods that are not in the Waterfront Partnership. Tide Point I don’t think is there, and Canton is not there. Is that OK? Or is it your vision to even be more expansive, and think even more holistically about the waterfront areas in Baltimore?

LS: When the Waterfront Partnership was formed, which was led at the time by Michael Hankin and Michael Beatty, they determined that a special benefits district or a special taxing district would be the best vehicle for funding the effort. And they felt strongly from the beginning that the district should only exist where support was present. So when we got started, there was a lot of support from the Rusty Scupper around to and including Harbor Point. At the time, Fells Point wasn’t sure if they wanted to be a part of it. So they were not in our initial boundaries. And one of the key principles that Mike Hankin set out was, we will only expand if we’re requested to. If a neighborhood approaches us, we would love to expand to include Fells Point, Canton, Locust Point, if support exists and if we’re asked. We’re not going to go out knocking on doors asking to expand. And so the Fells Point neighborhood did want to be included in the district. And we first embarked on a voluntary contribution plan and provided some services and there was support there for creating or expanding the business improvement district. And that took some time. But there was support ultimately, and as far as I hear, our neighbors are very happy that they are now within the larger district.

BFB: I’m looking at your website and the events are all pretty exciting – including the oyster partnership, Baltimore by Baltimore, Summer on the Waterfront, Ecotours. What’s the programming that you and your team are most excited about?

LS: Well, the newest and most exciting event series that I think we’re all excited about is Baltimore by Baltimore, which is the first Saturday of every month. It’s a festival series of music and makers, we call it, that really features the best of Baltimore and much of it is hidden talent that had not previously been exposed to a broader audience. … The key is hiring producers who are neighborhood based, and they put the show together for that month. They enlist and invite the talent. That means it’s coming from the neighborhoods. It’s not bands or talent that we might know. So it’s a great way to expand the network and cast a wider net, if you will, to bring performers and talent makers to the Inner Harbor that hadn’t been here before and are, for the most part thrilled to have that kind of venue. And so we’re really excited about that. It’s been very successful.

BFB: Last year was the first year?

LS: Yes. And it really begins to break down that perception that we hear too much that some people don’t feel comfortable, local people don’t feel comfortable, coming to the Inner Harbor. It’s just been so successful. Last year, we had an average of 10,000 people per Saturday attending, and that was independently collected information and data. It’s not just our guesstimate of how many people came. And they were safe events, and they were successful. The makers all made some money, got more followers, and the performers …. just looking at Baltimore by Baltimore Instagram account is just incredible, the excitement and enthusiasm. It’s all ages and races. It’s just heartwarming to see people coming together like that at the Inner Harbor, which is what the Inner Harbor was meant to be: a gathering place for Baltimore.

BFB: How depressing was it to see the decline of Harborplace over years? And could that have been avoided, or is it inevitable that places go through transitions like this?

LS: Well, places do go through transitions, and I think it was avoidable. The major reason I believe Harborplace deteriorated was because of out-of-town ownership. Certainly some out-of-town developers and owners are responsible and want to provide that vendors and retailers or restaurants that meet the market interests of any particular area. In this case…when Rouse Companies sold to General Growth [in 2004], General Growth [Properties] had their own financial problems…. General Growth knew malls. They didn’t know festival marketplaces. So they put in Hooters and Ripley’s and just your bigger box or larger chains that didn’t meet the needs or interests of Baltimore. They weren’t what locals wanted. And they weren’t what visitors wanted either.

Then General Growth filed for bankruptcy [in 2009]. They weren’t investing in any of their properties at the time. So Harborplace really went downhill from that lack of attention. And then Ashkenazy Acquisitions Corporation bought it. And they lived up to their name. They were an acquisition company. They were not a development company. They were not a management company. And Harborplace continued to slide waiting for promises from them, until it finally went into receivership. And now that’s been over three years.

So I think the decline was not due to the market. It was due to out-of-town owners that were not knowledgeable about the festival marketplace [concept]. There are some in the country that still do well, that Rouse originally developed. But now I think MCB is the right owner at the right time. David Bramble has a broad vision, and wants to develop what the community wants and is also working with us on redevelopment of the promenade. So it’s going to be a very exciting time in the next five years for the Inner Harbor, and Baltimore.

BFB: Is the Waterfront Partnership involved in safety at all? How do you think about safety for visitors and residents along the water?

LS: Our core programming is focused on creating an attractive and a welcoming environment. That starts with safety, maintenance, cleaning, and landscaping. Those are the core programs of Waterfront Partnership.

BFB:  Do you have dedicated safety staff? Is there an equivalent to the yellow jersey folks that the Downtown Partnership has?

LS: For the harbor, they are more hospitality guides than safety guides, and we have a very good relationship with the police. They will call on the police when they see suspicious activity, or groups of people that look like they’re up to suspicious activity. Fortunately, the Harbor doesn’t have the safety concerns that are experienced in other parts of the city. …. So safety guides provide that kind of welcoming, friendly presence. The goal of their work is to make a welcoming environment for people.

BFB: You’ve gotten a ton of kudos with the Rash Field redevelopment. People have been very excited about that project, and the timing of completion seemed great, coming mid-pandemic. Talk to us about how long that took to do , and what you were able to accomplish.

LS: This was the only remaining undeveloped parcel in the Inner Harbor. And it pretty much was left as a blank slate. There was a little bit of play equipment built into the landscape near the Science Center. And then Baltimore Beach, the beach volleyball group, set up through permits with the city. And they were activating the space, but that’s all.

And for many years, various groups said they were going to take on the redevelopment of Rash Field. But I think the Waterfront Partnership had the unique ability, because we have a good relationship with the city. The partnership is well respected privately. And we get things done. We just know how to roll up our sleeves, figure out what needs to be done and do it. We don’t always make a lot of noise about it. We just get it done. And so we started by working with the city primarily with the recreation and parks department, the Baltimore Development Corporation and the mayor’s office. They all supported our taking the lead on the design of the site. We went through a whole competitive process and hired Mahan Rykiel. We oversaw the design, along with all the supporting agencies. And we were able to raise money, starting with the city, which was very generous. The overall costs was $16.8 million, and the city funded $10 million. First Mayor Rawlings-Blake and then Mayor Young made those commitments and that allowed us to request and receive $4 million from the state, and then raised a little over $2 million privately. So it was all leveraging the commitments of government. And we saw real interest from private entities who participated and underwrote the pavilion, which is the most striking aspect — it’s the elevated white shade structure that captures people’s attention visually. It took a long time, I’ll admit that. We and GBC (Greater Baltimore Committee) had come out in 2012 with what was called Inner Harbor 2.0. An updated master plan for the harbor and Rash Field was identified as the top priority out of that plan, and so we got started in 2013 raising money and putting together the plan, and it opened in 2021. So it took a while.

In the summer, hospitality guides have iPads and survey people in the park, ask where they’re coming from and where do they live and what else would they like to see in Phase 2. The mix of people coming to the park is really broad and diverse. Certainly, people within walking distance are the heaviest users. But we have visitors from all over the city, and some tourists who happen upon it. But we really built it for Baltimore. And it’s been really well received. And we’re now starting to work on Phase 2.

BFB: Oh, what’s Phase 2?

LS: Phase 2 is the rest of the park. The whole site is about seven acres. And the first phase that we developed is only two and a half acres. So the next phase is is larger. And we’ve gone through a community engagement process for that. And Mahan Rykiel is just getting started on the design. And we’ve started fundraising already.

BFB: Gotcha. The population of downtown Baltimore as residential population has grown tremendously, hasn’t it, over the past decade or, or even two decades? How does that affect the waterfront and people’s desire to be there and use it? How are you taking that into account?

LS: It’s made an enormous difference. And it’s really allowed the waterfront to be successful. I mean, Harbor East is a wonderful mixed use community; Harbor Point is following suit and their apartments and condos still sell quickly. It provides more life on the street, especially at night. People come down for the restaurants or bars or the movie theaters, or to walk the waterfront. But the base population lives nearby and are within walking distance. And that just makes an incredible difference in terms of the number of feet on the street. And a sense of ownership that people have for ‘my neighborhood.’

BFB: I was paying attention last year as the Downtown Partnership was going through a blueprint process, one of the ideas on the table was the possibility of merging or combining groups. Is there value in a broader organization that was paying attention to both downtown and the waterfront?

LS: I think the key is that we are supportive of efforts within the larger downtown and waterfront area. Candidly, I mean, first, it’s a decision of the stakeholders, you know, it would be up to the boards of directors of those areas, the waterfront and downtown. Personally, I don’t see an advantage in having a larger group. I think as long as we’re working together and supporting each other, and building on each other’s strengths and meeting needs, I don’t see the benefit, frankly, of formal merger of organizations. But ultimately it’s up to the property owners and stakeholders.

BFB: Waterfront Partnership is also behind Mr. Trash Wheel? It’s so popular. How did that come about?

LS: While the Waterfront Partnership was focused from its inception on cleaning the land side of the waterfront, once we got our feet on the ground, Mike Hankin urged us to turn around and take some responsibility for also cleaning the water. Our initial focus was identifying new ways to remove trash from the Harbor rather than clean by chasing the trash with DPW skimmers. Knowing our interest, John Kellet, at the time working for Living Classrooms Foundation and also consumed by the problem of trash in the water, literally sketched an idea on a napkin and shared it with Mike and DPW officials. Mike and Waterfront Partnership were intrigued and were successful in obtaining grant money from Abell Foundation to fund the first interceptor, the first Waterwheel, invented and built by John Kellet.

In 2008, the first small water wheel powered trash interceptor was installed in the Jones Falls area; however, this initial water wheel was too small for the Jones Falls and was relocated after 8 months.  Following the relocation, John continued his efforts and went on to invent and build a larger trash wheel, which became Mr. Trash Wheel and was installed in May 2014. The introduction of the googly eyes on Mr. Trash Wheel was actually a suggestion from a company called What Works. The idea came about after a Waterfront Partnership generated video of the water wheel went viral online, accumulating over 1.5 million views within a week and ranking number one on Reddit.

BFB: So what are your favorite hidden gems of Baltimore? When you are in your ‘discover Baltimore’ moments with close friends or family, what do you like?

LS: Well, certainly, the Farmers’ Market on Sunday [under the JFX] brings just an incredible, cross section of Baltimore, all in one space. It’s where Baltimoreans from all over the city come together in one space. Koco’s is my favorite crabcake. And there’s Lexington Market. But walking around the waterfront is really special. Each part of the waterfront is different. Fells Point is is one of my favorite neighborhoods. It’s just historic and unique and funky and quirky. And that’s a favorite place to bring people.

BFB: In 10 years, how will the waterfront look different than it does now?

LS: The Inner Harbor will look very different; and Harborplace will be redeveloped. The adjacent streets will be more attractive and hopefully calmer not as much congestion. The promenade will be raised. We are seeing flooding and and a lot of increases in sunny day flooding especially.

BFB: So resiliency issues need to be addressed?

LS: We and MCB are beneficiaries of a state commitment of $67 million to rebuild the promenade. So that’s imminent. That will be rebuilt and it will be raised to become more resilient. The promenade is going to be rebuilt and that will look very different. We’re just starting in the coming months to embark on the studies and design, but it will be more resilient and I suspect even greener than it is….The harbor is going to look very different and be much more vibrant and alive.

Baltimore has its strengths, but they can seem outstripped by the city’s challenges – from education to crime to vacant housing. If Baltimoreans have learned anything in recent years, it’s that local and state governments can’t solely be relied upon to develop or fund solutions.

Often, private philanthropy helps make up the difference. There has been lots of money made in the city, from individuals and businesses, and many of them want to do good. The Baltimore region benefits mightily from the investment of philanthropic dollars.

The Baltimore Community Foundation is among the largest and most far-reaching donors in the region. Founded in 1972, and now has more than $250 million in assets under direction, and distributed roughly $31 million in grants and investments last year. The CEO, Shanaysha Sauls, has been in her position since 2018, and has steered the organization through the pandemic and through philosophical and strategic shifts.

Sauls, 44, is the first person of color and first woman to lead the foundation. She is a graduate of the University of Maryland College Park, and holds a PhD in political science from Duke University. She was a founding board member of the Patterson Park Public Charter School, and was CEO of Baltimore Leadership School for Young Women foundation. She recently spoke to Baltimore Fishbowl about her work. This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: Let me start by asking where the Baltimore Community Foundation gets its assets from? Is it mainly large donors? Is it small donors? Is it legacy donors?

Shanaysha Sauls: It’s actually all of the above. A considerable amount of our assets are created by bequests that people leave to us. Mostly because they’ve given all that they want to give to their family, and they love it here, have lived here and want to give back to Baltimore. They want a part of their legacy to be alive in perpetuity, and they entrust it with us. The most famous example of that for us is probably [former Baltimore Mayor and Maryland Gov.] William Donald Schaefer. He left $1.5 million to the Baltimore Community Foundation to support neighborhood projects. We do have a number of people who have made considerable wealth here in Baltimore, and they use BCF as a partner in their philanthropy, either through a donor-advised fund or a blank check….And then we also just have what I would say are the ‘philanthropists next door,’ people who give $10,000 or $20,000 or $50,000 on a regular basis, and they don’t want the hassle of like 20 checks.

And that’s actually something I’m really proud of, that there is no one profile of a funder or donor at BCF. We really do serve every profile – all shapes and sizes.

BFB: Often when pro athletes make a lot of money, they seem to set up their own foundation, because they all want to either have a name behind it, and they want to do their own thing. And maybe there’s some tax advantage to that. And sometimes people with considerable wealth want to have their own family foundation, or their own name behind something. So what’s the pitch of the Baltimore Community Foundation? What’s your competitive advantage?

SS: First let me just say that the family foundation, the private foundation, is alive and well in Baltimore. And frankly, we don’t see it necessarily as a competitor, we see it as a part of what makes philanthropy in Baltimore formidable that we have kind of different pockets of money.

In terms of how people make that decision, I would say it’s some combination of their values. Some families have a very specific value structure, and it’s very important to them, that that value structure lives on forever and a certain way. And so that’s kind of how we start that first conversation about what the values are, that will help them navigate their decision. I think second is capacity to execute. And that’s where the conversation goes. Who’s going to be responsible for your giving? Is it your family members? Sometimes family members aren’t as interested in your causes as you would like them to be, or they don’t have the time or the inclination. Maybe they don’t live in Baltimore anymore, or they are more focused on their children’s school, or they just have other priorities. So we do want to think about capacity to execute on the vision, both currently and in perpetuity. And then the third would be: What do you want your legacy to be? If the legacy is a kind of permanence, and your legacy is that you want to try to perhaps aggregate your funds with other people who are kind of thinking about the same issues, then you want to come to a community foundation.

BFB: You are working under a new strategic plan, and looking at that, it looks like you’ve made some philosophical and structural changes recently. What’s the most important idea in there, or the biggest change in direction for BCF in this version of the strategic plan?

SS: This plan is a three-year plan. It goes from 2023 to 2025. It really is our opportunity to reconnect with our donors and make sure they’re aware of the issues facing the region. We are facing a different world, a different city and different region than we faced prior to COVID. So we need to reconnect them with those issues and how they think about their philanthropy. We grew a lot under the previous plan. When I started in 2018, one of my first tasks was to come up with a new strategic plan. There was a plan to grow. And we did that and then some – we grew exponentially. And part of what this three-year plan does is make sure that we are building the infrastructure and the systems to execute effectively… We expanded our donor base significantly; we diversified our donor base significantly. We mobilized funds and marshalled funds in ways we’ve never done before. And now we’re kind of taking stock and reloading.

And then we talk about impacts. A lot has happened, and a lot has changed over the last few years. And I think even now, more than ever, particularly as we look at the next generation of donors, the younger boomers, particularly like the Gen Xers, and the older millennials, they are much more suspicious of institutions, and they want to know and understand the impact. They want to know who’s being affected; they want to know where the money’s going. Pride and valor are not good enough for why you write a check. They want something that’s a little bit more tangible. And so we’re going to take that time to tell that story to make sure that we’re effectively talking about how our resources and those of our partners are being mobilized to make an impact and move the needle in Baltimore.

BFB: I did see the term ‘impact investing.’ Is that a new term? Do you have to measure a lot more than you used to? Has that changed during your tenure here?

SS: It’s probably fair to say that impact investing is a newish term. It’s something that is much more common now but was less commonly spoken of seven to 10 years ago. So essentially, when most people think about giving back and you think about money, right, as the tool to give back, you make the money. And there’s a bright line that separates making the money and giving the money away. Impact investing blurs that line. So the idea is that you can make money by investing in local communities that need capital. And you’re typically making a return, although the return may not be as high as historical market returns. And you’re putting money to work in communities and people that need it the most. It creates kind of this virtuous cycle.

Impact investing is a circle. Where you’re investing money, you’re investing in the community, the money is returned, you reinvest into the community. And so in new opportunities, whether it’s in the environment, or small businesses or for community development, I think the field is vast. And the great thing about impact investing is that while there have been a couple of foundations that have been doing community impact investing for 10 or more years, it’s really just now kind of caught fire. People are more and more interested in ways that they can think about their grant dollars in different ways and impact investing allows you to do that.

BFB: Is there is there a gold standard or best showcase of this in Baltimore?

SS: The one example that I’ll give you – it’s kind of like for me the star – is what we were able to do with ReBuild Metro [the non-profit which has renovated more than 200 abandoned homes in East Baltimore]. It is this fantastic collaborative of economic development folks, community development folks, philanthropists, residents, nonprofits, the faith-based community, and they are working on aggregating capital to completely overturn a community in a way that involves the current residents. What we did was make a modest impact investment of $100,000 and that $100,000 sparks another million dollars from people who had donor-advised funds at BCF. People said, ‘Because BCF put in $100,000 as sort of I’ll call it ‘risk capital,’ we are going to co-invest with BCF through our donor advised funds.’

BFB: I see also in the strategic plan that you have at least two policy areas you want to address: the digital divide and kindergarten readiness. How were those selected versus all the other needs in Baltimore?

SS: For kindergarten readiness, what we found is that the pandemic pretty much decimated early learning….I think your brain develops more between the ages of zero and five than in any other time in your development. And the isolation, the fear, the lack of connection, the lack of learning, lack of numeracy, the lack of social development, the gross and other motor skills, and all of those things came into question during the pandemic.

And the effects of that … affects preparedness for kindergarten. And what we saw coming out of the pandemic were huge dips in and readiness for kindergarten. BCF has been a funder in this space, among many, for years. So for us, it was only appropriate to use our grant-making dollars to support efforts to ensure that children from zero to five were engaging in activities with their families to prepare them for kindergarten.

The digital divide … I was slapped in the face with that during the pandemic. I had heard the term but didn’t really know what it meant. I’ll be really frank: I had no idea what the digital divide was until 2020. And what we realized in 2020, when we all had to kind of scurry to our homes and children had to work on their schoolwork online and adults had to work online — if they were fortunate enough to — we were getting our information online or our entertainment online. And we were actually even getting our medical care online. I have a home with five people, and we were able to do all those things almost without disruption. But we had 40% of families across Baltimore who could not and it was very clear to us that closing the digital divide was no longer a luxury. It’s not an accessory…. This is a quality of life and economic development tool. And Baltimore City is small enough, and the resources are there to do it.

You’ve got leadership at every level of government, you’ve got the large commercial internet service providers falling in line and you’ve got community partners at every level, saying ‘This is a way that we get and we stay connected.’ So our world is changing as a result of the digital reality and Baltimore needs to come into the 21st century.

The other issue, which is also in the strategic plan, is around gun violence. We started our conversations before the pandemic. And that was in response to what we were hearing from our communities. We work with grassroots, neighborhood organizations that are doing tree plantings and street cleaning, and we kept hearing over and over and over again that the rate of homicide and the rate of non-fatal shootings was just becoming untenable. And given our perch, in our experience, we couldn’t be quiet. And we refuse to be quiet about it. And so we decided that we would put a stake in the ground, and we would say something about it and support efforts to reduce homicide and gun violence.

BFB: You’ve mentioned that a couple of times, and it sounds like the pandemic was incredibly impactful on you, as an organization and you as a leader.

SS: So let me start with the good. We had about five decades of creating strong relationships across other foundations, including private foundations, across the public sector, within communities across Baltimore City and Baltimore County. And we were able to bring these things to bear very, very quickly, to get money and get it out the door to the right places very, very quickly. And I’m very proud of being a part of a collaborative of about 12 foundations that met on a weekly basis during the early weeks of the pandemic to get money out to the community.

So what that taught is: number one, in Baltimore we can work together. For all the rumors about how siloed we are and how divided we are, when it comes to protecting Baltimoreans, particularly a time of acute need, we can and we will work together unselfishly. And we did that. The second thing I think we learned about the pandemic is that when you’re working online, people’s lives are showing up at work in ways that they never have before. And frankly, although we’ve returned to some form of hybrid work, what I realize as a leader is the spirit of that is not going to change. As a leader, I’ve got to figure out how to adjust to that…. Trying to figure out this whole idea of work-life balance is something that has taken on a whole new meaning not only for the workplace, but also as a leader, and how I tend to that for my team.

And then in other ways, it’s just the world is so uncertain. The pandemic has changed our patterns of commerce and patterns of communication, our patterns of working together, how we go to school, how we think and work together. And I will not lead an organization that is going to be a dinosaur. And so while we don’t have all the answers, we do realize that we have to be nimble enough to respond to the world.

BFB: So what’s the best use of your time as the head of this organization?

SS: You know, this is actually a hard question for me to answer for a few reasons. Number one, I don’t know if any day of mine is exactly the same … and that’s probably a good thing.

But I do think that the highest and best use of an organization that has built the relationships and the networks and the experience that it has is really to be working with other like-minded organizations with complementary and sometimes similar overlapping networks and experience to figure out what are our most stubborn challenges — and how can we work together to move on it? You know, we were the only major city on the East Coast that lost population. It’s embarrassing.

BFB:  So I would think that now, five years into your tenure, including the pandemic, you must be at the absolute sweet spot of having transcended the learning curve and now able to implement before burnout sets in. Do you feel that way?

SS: The short answer is yes. I think we all came out of the pandemic a little scathed. There are a number of leaders, some of whom have decided not to lead anymore. It’s been a very difficult period, but I actually feel very energized. And I’m also grateful that I had a couple of years to make some changes. I had a dress rehearsal for the big show. But BCF and Baltimore continue to amaze me. Every time I think I know something about Baltimore, I learn something new, which is good. It’s stimulating. I don’t know that I’m prepared to say ‘sweet spot,’ but I continue to be energized and I do understand more about this organization than I ever have.

BFB: Does your board set your investment policy? Or do they kind of sign off on it after it is prepared by you and staff?

SS: No, the board develops our investment policy. It’s actually developed by our investment committee. So it develops the investment policy and submits it for approval.

BFB: What do you like to do in Baltimore – you and your family? What’s your favorite thing about the city in your free time?

SS: So I’m now an empty nester. As of September of last year, I’m an empty nester. My husband, he has always had it figured out in terms of his athletics — he loves cycling. I haven’t figured it out yet. I spent so much time as a working mom. So I’ve got a couple of ideas that I’ll keep out of the public view. But in terms of what I enjoy, I like getting to know the city almost like I don’t live here. I enjoy going to the museums, I love going to a new and different places to eat with different kinds of cuisine. I grew up in a relatively rural area. So I love anything that gets me looking at the water, or near the water.

BFB: I know you have your PhD and you were in education in English, but you didn’t really have a philanthropy background before you started in this, is that accurate?

SS: It’s funny. I tell people, not only did I not really know that philanthropy was a thing, a field, but I don’t think I really knew what a community foundation was. Now in my volunteer life, I applied for money. I co-founded a charter school. Way back when I first moved to Baltimore, I had applied for money as the treasurer to foundations. So I was familiar with fundraising. But philanthropy as a field and industry work was just completely foreign to me. And I’ll be frank, I don’t know that I entirely have wrapped my head around it, but I don’t worry about it too much.

Both baseball fans and laypersons might have noticed a buzz in the air this spring, or caught a glimpse of people wearing orange t-shirts or jerseys bearing the numbers 35 or 31 and the names Rutschman and Mullins across the back.

You may have overheard a conversation at the next table or across the bar with people talking about the Baltimore Orioles’ place in the eastern division standings, or when they’ll be heading to Oriole Park or wherever else they might have plans to watch the next game. Perhaps someone has asked you to join them for a game at the ballpark this season.

Coming on the heels of the Orioles’ first winning season in six years, expectations were high entering the season even though the Orioles play in the toughest division in the major leagues.

It hasn’t felt this way in Baltimore since the Orioles’ last eastern division title in 2014 or as surprising since the team’s last big turnaround season of 2012.

The Orioles are in the fifth season of a five-year plan that began with the restructuring of the team’s front office prior to the 2019 season and the hiring of the trio of general manager Mike Elias, field manager Brandon Hyde, and vice president and assistant general manager of analytics Sig Mejdal. Elias and Mejdal were both part of the Houston Astros organization that won a World Series championship in 2017.

The nucleus of a successful squad that saw the Astros win five west division titles in six seasons was developed within the franchise’s own player development system using a formula of analytics-based studies and evaluation.

Mejdal (pronounced maɪdəl / MY-dəl) is among the unsung heroes and brains of the operation crunching numbers behind the scenes. A former NASA engineer and blackjack dealer, Mejdal has worked with general manager Elias for a total of 17 years including previous stints with the Astros and St. Louis Cardinals, acquiring three World Series rings along the way (two with the Cardinals in 2006 and 2011). During his seven seasons in St. Louis and under his direction, the Cardinals drafted more players that would reach the major leagues than any other big-league team. As “Director of Decision Sciences” for the Houston Astros from 2012-2017 he created a system of choosing players based on physical tests and prior performance.

When he was brought on board here in Baltimore, Elias referred to his hiring as a milestone in the team’s history: “Sig Mejdal is one of the most experienced and accomplished analysts working in baseball today,” said Elias in the Orioles’ news release. “To have him join our Orioles organization is a major moment for this franchise, and I look forward to him charting the course for all of our forthcoming efforts in the analytics space.”

Prior to the hiring of the analytics-driven former Astros trio, the Orioles hit rock bottom posting an abysmal 47-115 record, the worst season in the franchise’s 64-year history to date; tied for the fourth most defeats in modern major league history dating back to 1901.

Over the next four seasons, the Orioles compiled records of: 54-108 in 2019, 25-35 in the pandemic abbreviated season of 2020, 52-110 in 2021 and 83-79 in 2022.

While it may have been a tiresome and frustrating period for Orioles fans to endure, the team and its fans are now seeing the master plan come to fruition. Things began to turn around for the team shortly after the major league debut of wunderkind first-round draft pick and top-rated minor league prospect catcher Adley Rutchsman on May 21, 2022.
The 2022 Orioles 31-game improvement from the previous season was the greatest in modern major league baseball history.

Since the halfway mark of the 2022 season (after 81 games on July 5, 2022) the Orioles have the fifth best record in all major league baseball at 73-50 (.609) trailing only the Los Angeles Dodgers, Atlanta Braves, Houston Astros, and Tampa Bay Rays over the same period.

For the first time in team history the Orioles are currently ranked with the number one farm system in Baseball America’s organizational talent rankings.

A cast of home-grown emerging star players has the Orioles currently residing in second place two-and-half games behind Tampa Bay in what will undoubtedly prove to be a hotly contested race in the AL East.

Mejdal recently sat with Baltimore Fishbowl for a Zoom call conversation to discuss his five years of work with the Orioles organization and the team’s transition into baseball analytics era.

Baltimore Fishbowl: It’s been four years since you joined the Orioles, this is your fifth season, and I remember hearing about a five-year plan when it first started. Is everything going according to plan?

Sig Mejdal: Yeah, it is. The plan was to create processes to make the organization as modern as can be, to position them not only to compete but to be a perennial playoff contender. We can’t do that without creating a pipeline of talent, from the draft to internationally and up through player development. All those processes that lead to those things, really. Most everything about the Orioles has changed, and that’s been the plan. I know we talk about processes and the fans don’t see those changes in the draft process, or the changes with the player development personnel, or their processes. But those things have all changed. Winning so far this season, and having the number one player development system, that’s nice and the fans can see that. We’re happy about that, but what’s nice are the processes to lead to that. That’s changed, and that’s changed permanently, hopefully.

BFB: There’s got to be some joy in that, too, in the process. I would imagine it feels good when it’s happening.

SM: Of course, it does. We have an imbalanced life. It’s baseball from the time we get up to the time we go to sleep. And it’s much more rewarding when you see not only the process change, but you start to see the results.

BFB: Can you describe the working relationship between you and GM Michael Elias?

SM: It’s an excellent relationship. We’ve been working together since 2007. We’ve been through a lot together. I think we both have this unique experience to work with owners, both in St. Louis and then in Houston, who were not just interested in dabbling in analytics to stick your big toe in the water, but instead were very clear that they wanted to take advantage of whatever juice there is to squeeze from this and to take advantage of it immediately before other teams did. That has meant we’ve lived on the bleeding edge for 17 years together. It’s impossible to go on a ride like that with somebody without feeling a bond. And this ride isn’t done yet; hopefully far from it.

BFB: When you talk about the arc of that relationship, were the Orioles late in coming to this game?

SM: Yes.

BFB: It was new territory, something they hadn’t even dabbled in, like you said.

SM: I think it’s well known that at the time we got here, there were more than 400 analysts in baseball and the Orioles had zero. They had a skilled developer, but they had no analysts at the time. This was when other teams in their division had 20 or 30 and they’ve had that for five or 10 years. It’s like a century or two of analytics years that our competition had and for a variety of reasons the Orioles didn’t.

BFB: How large is the analytics department? How many new hires were required to create this?

SM: We’re hiring and we’re creating it and we’re expanding it as quickly as could be, but we’re careful. We’re very choosy with who we bring in and for good reason. So now we have a staff of 14 or 15 or 16. Depends if you count the part-time but very skilled interns we have. So that’s about average, but we’re still growing and we’re growing at a rate which is, in my experience, a reasonable, responsible rate.

BFB: You talked about the interns. I would imagine that you’ve been seeing more applicants in the analytics department, where other years you might have seen people going into marketing or communications or whatever.

SM: Definitely. So, an opening now might get 700, 800 applicants. And with the skill set that so many of them have coming out of universities, with the skill set that we wouldn’t see in the past.

BFB: Now that the Orioles farm system has become ranked number one, how do you keep that up? How do you stay number one?

SM: That’s a good question. I would answer that in the same way that got us here. An incessant questioning of what we’re doing, constantly looking for a better way of doing things for innovations. And then when we have the confidence of how we can improve to take advantage of that wholly and immediately. That’s what’s got us here, and that’s the process that hopefully will keep us at the top or near the top for as long as possible.

BFB: Have there been any pleasant or unpleasant surprises in the way the team has developed these past four years?

SM: Of course. There’s always surprises. We count on surprises while we can’t control them. We do our best to position ourselves to have the best chance for those surprises. As you’ve noticed, more than our share of players has come from waivers. Mateo, Urías, Pérez, Baker, Voth, I’m probably missing a couple. Tyler Wells from Rule 5. And they’ve done so well. That’s a tribute to our pro scouting group and to our analysts who both like the chances of them being a pleasant surprise — and they are all pleasant surprises. Our player development coaches under Matt Blood have been amazing. The progress they’ve made has been incredible, and the development taking place because of that and player development is exciting. You may know one of our Major League hitting coaches [Ryan Fuller], 30-something months before he was a Major League hitting coach he was a high school teacher in Connecticut. I wouldn’t have thought there was that potential to realize so quickly, but there is and there has been. Those are all big wonderfully pleasant surprises.

BFB: It’s a young man’s game on a lot of levels. I think the people who are in the think tanks now are younger than baseball executives have traditionally been in the past.

SM: They may happen to be younger, but it’s not the youth which is so attractive. It’s instead the new ideas and taking more evidence-based best practices from other fields or from the research and applying it to this industry.

BFB: What are some of the organization’s most pressing needs or concerns?

SM: I think while the days of the Orioles avoiding so many of the best practices in baseball are gone, the rest of the baseball world are not dummies. It’s a zero-sum game and we’re all fighting for those wins. We’re happy with the changes so far, but it never ends. The other teams are looking for the same things we are, the same inefficiencies I speak of, and finding those before they do and taking advantage of them is always our most pressing need.

BFB: Specifically, where the team’s strengths and weaknesses lie, is there something you think that needs to be addressed to get to pennant contention past the All-Star break?

SM: Yeah, Charlie, I don’t think it’s as sexy as that. I think it’s: we need to create runs. We need to hold our opponents to runs. And however we could do that, we’re attracted to that. So are all the other teams, and we want to do it to such a degree that we’re in the playoffs. That’s sort of the oversimplified marching orders.

BFB: The fans are obviously enjoying this early success, but is there anything that you think fans could be looking forward to as the season evolves?

SM: I think we’re always going to be an organization that relies more on younger, homegrown talent than the typical team and that’s exciting. We have some very good players up here. We’ve got some very good players coming and that’s well known, but their stories and their personalities and their journeys are probably less well known. And when one becomes aware of their journeys, it’s hard not to fall in love with them. I know our content team puts together quite a bit on our YouTube channel and even now more on MASN. We’re looking forward to these young players coming up here, realizing their dreams and producing for the Orioles, and I hope our fans are too.

BFB: With injuries, you sometimes must move guys up and that also creates opportunity. I was reading some stuff recently about Urías’s replacement, who’s tearing it up right now. I would think he’s somebody that we could start thinking about.

SM: Yes, and behind him, there’s others that are maybe in the hope right now. But certainly quite a few of them, hopefully, will turn into reality that we’ll see up here in Camden Yards.

BFB: Do you personally spend time going to games at Bowie?

SM: Not as much as I wish I could make time for, but I usually visit every affiliate a time or two during the season.

BFB: I bring Bowie to mind because the double A level seems to be more of the pipeline to the big leagues, and its proximity to Baltimore as well is convenient. Thinking about the game at the minor league level which involves a lot of instruction begs the question of how analytics and instruction are tied to each other?

SM: I think of analytics as synonymous with just using evidence. You can use analytics to make better decisions. That’s synonymous with using evidence to make better decisions. It doesn’t seem so incendiary. That seems like a good way to go. With coaches, for instance, they’re making decisions on what the player should work on and how they should teach that. And tech and analytics, of course, can reveal what the player is doing well, what he’s doing poorly, what he’s struggling with, what even we’re able to fix. That can educate the coach on what to work on. Then, of course, there’s a lot of research evidence on how to develop expertise, and developing baseball skills is really an acquisition of visual motor skills. The world knows a lot about how visual motor skills are developed and our coaches are aware of those best practices. Along with practice design and strength and conditioning and we have coaches taking advantage of all the information. The data that comes from Tech for sure, but also the knowledge out there from the research world all to make our players better.

BFB: This year is a new type of season for baseball, including the rule changes that everyone is getting adjusted to. This year’s team seems to be very well-suited to some of those changes. You knew this was coming. So how are you using analytics to move the team in this new direction?

SM: Analytics or evidence has been used to different degrees for infield positioning for quite a while. Now with the rule that there must be two players on each side of second base, that is just another constraint. It goes into the model, it changes things, but it’s still no different. There may not be as dramatic shifting going on, but still the positioning we want to do is evidence-based. You were asking about the rule changes in general, so there’s the infield positioning, the stolen base, the bases being bigger, making the distance from second being shorter, along with the limited pickoff throws. It sort of changes the calculus in not only the frequency at which pitchers pick off, but the lead and the risk the players, the base stealers lead into. Like you said, that was no mystery that it was coming and our analytics team, our coaches and our players were well-prepared for that.

BFB: When you think about the process and the past four years as this was evolving, it seemed like the team was being almost built in that direction before the changes even arrived.

SM: We had our share of base stealers and so these rules were especially welcoming to us. Not only would they make the game more interesting, but they would also give us a bit of an advantage over the other clubs.

BFB: How do finances and payroll figure into this equation? How do you use your resources to go after what you need to get?

SM: I’d be lying if I said they don’t play a part, but our job is to improve, find inefficiencies, take these findings to the logical conclusion. Whether you’re the New York Yankees or the smallest market team, that’s your goal too. Some teams having more resources undoubtedly makes it more challenging, but it also makes it more rewarding if you’re able to beat them.

BFB: Finally, I was at last night’s game [May 10]. It’s a thrilling game. I really enjoyed it. I loved seeing the Orioles take two out of three from Tampa Bay, who burst out of the gate. But one thing that I was disappointed in: I thought more people should have been there. Are there any ways that analytical studies can be applied to what fans want to see or the fan experience? It might not even be something that’s happening on the field. I don’t know how you supercharge that.

SM: I think analytics can be applied to anything. And while this isn’t my area of expertise, we have ticketing analytics people that are looking into that. Questions related to maximizing the fan experience or increasing attendance can certainly be guided by looking at the evidence. One thing, working on the baseball operation side, that I am completely certain increases attendance is providing the fans with a young, exciting, energetic, fun-to-watch, competitive team. And that’s out there right now at Camden Yards. We both saw it last night.

BFB: I would imagine as the season progresses, attendance is going to increase too. Once school is out of session, families can stay out a little later.

SM: I hope so too. It’s impossible not to see the energy, sense the energy around town and the excitement with this team.

Editor’s note: The introduction to this interview has been corrected to reflect that Brandon Hyde was not with the Houston Astros with Mike Elias and Sig Mejdal.

Kirby Fowler became president and CEO of the Maryland Zoo in Baltimore in mid-2020, and was immediately tasked with re-opening the institution amid a frightening pandemic that cost the institution about $1 million in revenue. With no previous background in the animal industry, Fowler brought to the position skills and connections forged as president of the Downtown Partnership of Baltimore, where he had worked for 16 years.

Now in charge of the third-oldest zoo in the country, Fowler is passionate about Baltimore — where he and his family have lived for more than three decades — and knows how to create great destinations. Under his direction, the zoo released an ambitious master plan that plots improvements and development for at least the next decade.

He recently spoke with Baltimore Fishbowl about the zoo’s role in the community, its conservation efforts, and getting spit on by chimpanzees.

Baltimore Fishbowl: After 16 years at the Downtown Partnership, helping make sure Downtown Baltimore was successful, what made this position attractive to you?

Kirby Fowler: My predecessor at the zoo, Don Hutchinson, was the president of the Greater Baltimore Committee, and was the Baltimore County Executive before that. He had really no animal industry work in his background, but he basically paved the way for me, because, for 12 years, he was able to manage the zoo well. Of course, he learned it on the job and became an expert in the end. So he already opened the door for somebody with a non-animal background to run a zoo. Thankfully, I have the nonprofit management side which I could bring, and it’s very important for us to keep on attracting donations and initiating capital projects, attracting attendees. In some ways, there’s so much overlap with downtown because our goal downtown was to attract people and to create a good environment for them when they came downtown, to build projects to attract and retain them downtown. So it’s about creating a destination, whether you’re downtown or at the zoo.

BFB: One of the first things you did was undertake a master planning process, and last year you unveiled a plan to guide the zoo’s growth over the next decade. Tell us about that plan.

KF: I found that having master plans was a very useful tool for me at the Downtown Partnership. … So I got our trustees involved, staff, volunteers, under the watchful eye of a consultant who has been the architect at our zoo, helping with the habitat constructions for quite some time. All told it took about a year and a half for us to go through the process.

There are three different buckets. First of all, with regard to animals, it’s continuing to provide excellence in animal care, but also getting more involved in conservation activities locally and internationally, and making sure the public is aware of them. We want people to be able to connect the dots. When they’re here, they can see our keepers or vets working directly with animals. Those same people can take their skills and go to Africa or Panama, and assist with our conservation programs, where we’re leaders. We want people to understand there’s a next step after visiting a zoo: you learn about an animal, you learn about the environment, you learn about climate change, but what can you do after leaving a zoo? We want people to know that we are doing that kind of work; we are going out and doing great, great work internationally.

The second category is people. The zoology field is not very diverse. It’s something that’s been recognized by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums. So we would like to figure out how we can create diversity in the pipeline of people who are getting involved in biology or environmental science. I also want to continue to figure out how we can improve compensation for our employees. Zoo employees, I feel, are often not compensated fairly. A lot of these people just love their jobs so much, and we shouldn’t take advantage of that…. We should make sure that they’re compensated appropriately. We should continue to be a zoo that’s accessible to all kinds of people and improve upon our accessibility. We can improve our Spanish-speaking outreach; we are connecting more with the School for the Deaf, and with groups that address challenges with autism and other sensory needs.

And then finally, with regard to creating the right habitats and environment, we realized that we had to go back to the Main Valley, the central core of the zoo where it all started in 1876.

My predecessors and others over the past 30 years did a great job in moving animals out of substandard habitats, and into more expansive open naturalistic habitats. And that meant clearing out the historic zoo, with small cages and small holding areas. … But by creating this back part of the zoo, with the African journey, the penguin coast, the Maryland wilderness and more, the Main Valley was closed and left as really a behind-the-scenes area for operations. So in 2021, we reopened the Main Valley as a walkway through the zoo. It’s the fastest way to get from the front of the zoo to our live animals. But there’s great history there. How can we honor that history, but also finally get some new habitats in there? …So that was really the focus point of the building part of the plan. How do we bring life back to Main Valley?

BFB: Are there a shrinking number of zoos in the U.S.? Do all zoos survive? How should we think of the Maryland Zoo in the pantheon of zoos in the U.S.?

KF: Well, I think we’re going to survive because we are associated with the Association of Zoos and Aquariums. Every five years, we go through accreditation with the AZA, and it’s the highest standard for animal care, building design, habitat design. It’s really the blue ribbon. And we are going through that right now — our five-year accreditation. The zoos that are associated with that group are thriving and doing good things and attracting attendees. Gen X and millennials, we want to have a full experience, and we want to make sure the animals are being treated well. We want to know that when you visit a zoo, that you’re helping something internationally. You don’t just want to see three tigers in a pool. … But I have heard anecdotally of zoos shutting down — the ones that are on the edge. Tri-State Zoo, for example, which is in Cumberland, recently was shut down. It was one of those where they weren’t keeping up with the standards. …But others just like us, we’re doing cutting-edge research. The animal care is phenomenal. I often say that our keepers and vets are like Hopkins Medicine but for animals.

BFB: The location of the zoo is phenomenal, on 135 acres in Druid Hill Park. But are you connected well enough with Baltimore — not just in terms of people but also physical connectivity? What do you think about making sure the Maryland Zoo is connected to Baltimore?

KF: We want to do whatever we can to attract people to the zoo. Most recently, we participated in a Downtown Partnership initiative, where we charged $1 for entrance in January. And we had tremendous attendance. I got letters from people thanking us for basically not charging them to come to the zoo…We recently gave free admission to Afghan refugees who are actually living right outside of our park… There are ways that we can continue to draw people in people of all incomes…In terms of the physical connectivity, the city is teaming with the federal government to build those big tanks which will hold our drinking water; I think it’s the biggest effort in the country right now to safeguard drinking water from bio hazards but right now that is creating a bit of a gap between the park and the neighborhoods because of the construction work that’s happening there. And on the other side of the zoo, there’s the issue that many people are trying to address — it may not be necessary to have four lanes of traffic going all the same direction. …In fact, we just talked to MTA MDOT recently about how we can connect better to them, and Mondawmin Mall and the Metro station. But yeah, we do have this circle of roadways around us, it makes it a little challenging.

BFB: And you must have all the land you need to do stuff with, right? One hundred thirty-five acres is a lot of land. Or is it not enough?

KF: A lot of our land is the home of an old-growth forest, and it actually creates a great environment for us. It’s a great ecosystem for us. We track turtles and deer within our own boundaries. But we have to be careful that we don’t encroach too much on the old-growth forests within the zoo. Having said that, we’ve got plenty to do in Main Valley. That will take probably 10 years, and we have many different habitats. We are planning to build a gibbon habitat. Gibbons are these wonderful primates that have an iconic call, and they swing from the trees, and it will be a great way to enter the zoo. We also want to have what we will be calling Raptor Ridge, where we have Steller’s sea eagles which are from the Arctic, and they would be in much larger habitats than we had 150 years ago.

BFB: I didn’t see a total price tag in the master plan. Is there one?

KF: There is not. There are so many moving pieces. There is even compensation for employees. … And I know that people get fixated too much on that, and it can scare them away. Whereas if the gibbon habitat is $3 million, and the raptor habitat is $3 million, that’s manageable. So we’re going to do bite-sized chunks.

BFB: The zoo is a non-profit organization, and Baltimore has many challenges. How hard is it to try to raise resources in a city like Baltimore, where the needs are education and health care and crime and much more? How do you develop the pitch that really makes sure you have a lane there?

KF: Having lived in Baltimore for 30-plus years, of course, I recognize the needs, the social needs in the community. But we also can address those social needs. So when I’m talking to philanthropies, first of all, just the fresh air experience that people can have here, there are studies that say that your blood pressure drops the minute you walk into a zoo. So there’s the health benefit. There’s also the educational benefit, if kids can learn more about animals, that might inspire them to take STEM courses or pursue an environmental studies degree. …. And I think more philanthropies are connecting climate change to local health and the environment, and we’re all an ecosystem. And when a species goes extinct, who knows what ramifications that could have on us. So I think just teaching the lesson to people about the need to support biodiversity could satisfy a lot of needs of philanthropies. But beyond that – the state is a wonderful supporter of us on the capital side, as well as on the operating side. Then, of course, we look to private donations. We’re looking to raise, in this first phase of the master plan, about $10 million to $15 million, and we would like to raise about 20% of that privately.

BFB: Do zoos need a signature animal, like something so people say ‘That’s the animal of the of the Maryland Zoo.’ And do you have one?

KF: Well, they’re all signature animals, David. But babies matter as much as anything else. We have three young chimps. And we may be the only zoo in the country that has three young chimps. And it’s drawn a lot of attention and guests. But its a good question though because we’ve got the National Zoo down the road with pandas. But there’s a really compelling essay from the head of the Bronx Zoo in the 1970s about how to exhibit a bullfrog. So even a humble bullfrog, with the right exhibits, could be a wonderful learning experience. It’s all how you present things.

BFB: That actually gets me to a question I want to ask you. Tell me about your Panamanian frog conservation efforts.

KF: It’s been going on for years at the zoo…So these Panamanian golden frogs, they were dying from chytrid, which is a fungal disease…And so we collected a bunch of frogs along with our partners in and around Panama. And so we’ve been able to save a bunch of frogs and bring them to Baltimore, and breed them here, and actually loan them out to other zoos. We own every Panamanian Golden frog that’s in a zoo or aquarium in the country. And we are studying how we might be able to reintroduce them back in the wild.

BFB: I read a very scary article recently about the current avian flu and what it’s doing to birds — not just poultry and cultivated birds, but birds in the wild in the U.S. How worried is the zoo world?

KF: We have teamed up with our state, the state veterinarian, to find the right protocols to handle our birds and safeguard them. It looks like it’s gonna be an epidemic where we’re gonna have to live with this almost forever.

So last year we worked with the state vet, and actually the state vet was very supportive of our precautions, because we don’t want to be in a situation where, God forbid, a penguin gets bird flu, and we could be instructed to kill all of our penguins, just like what happens with the chickens that are in poultry farms on the Eastern Shore. So we took precautions immediately, we brought our birds inside. We had to cover a lot of our aviaries because the flu is transmitted by wild migrating waterfowl. During the migration season, they’re flying all over Druid Hill Park, and they can drop their feces in the cage, or our own guests and keepers could bring in the feces on their shoes. So we have a cleaning protocol for some of our experiences with animals — shoes get cleaned before you can enter. You can be walking on some of this contaminated material and then bring it to the zoo. So it is scary. This next round this year, I think we learned a lot from the precautions. I’m hoping we can dial it back. Birds should be outdoors as much as they can. We don’t want to return to that, but we’ll be following the advice of our vets as well as the state vet.

BFB: When you first went through the facilities and the back of the zoo, what was the most surprising thing to you? What did you learn that you didn’t know?

KF: Well, you don’t turn your back on (animals) because they might spit on you. I got a christening when I was on my first visit to the chimp area. That was fun. But I was blown away… To see our keepers or vets in action, to see our volunteers engaging with the public, it was extraordinary. And what we can see behind the scenes, one of our lions was under anesthesia, and to see our vets with his arm fully in the mouth of a lion, trying to deal with intubation and breathing, it was extraordinary to see that. I am so in awe of the skill level of our people who deal with our animals.

Rebecca Corbett, investigations editor at the New York Times and a longtime Baltimorean, has been at the center of some of the most consequential journalism of the last couple of decades. She is revered by colleagues for her standards, her work ethic and her intellectual rigor, but like many editors who never receive a byline, her name had long been hidden from view.

That first changed about a decade ago, when the New York Times named Corbett to the masthead, a recognition of her importance to the organization. Any remaining anonymity was shattered in 2019 with the publication of ‘She Said: Breaking the Sexual Harassment Story That Helped Ignite a Movement’ by Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey, the Times reporters who were the writers on the powerful stories that exposed Harvey Weinstein’s predatory behavior and garnered a Pulitzer Prize. Corbett’s role as a collaborative and exacting editor was a key feature of the book, and also in the movie version that came out last year, with actor Patricia Clarkson cast as Corbett.

She joined the Times in 2004, after 25 years at the Baltimore Sun. She had rejected two previous job offers, but this time decided to move after deducing that a fourth chance was unlikely to materialize. She is part of a cadre of former Sun journalists who furthered their careers at the Times, including now-retired national security reporter Scott Shane, education reporter Erica Green, congressional reporter Luke Broadwater and congressional editor Julie Hirschfeld Davis.

Although she spends many working days in New York City, Corbett, 70, has never moved from the Roland Park home she shares with her husband. She recently spoke with Baltimore Fishbowl about how she and her staff approach stories, how she handles the spotlight that comes with being a Times editor, and how her signature chunky necklaces were replicated for Hollywood.

Baltimore Fishbowl: Back in the day there was a whole generation of journalists who saw or read All the President’s Men, and were inspired by Woodward and Bernstein and Ben Bradlee and said ‘I’m going to go into journalism because of this.’ Do you sense that the work you’ve done on the on Harvey Weinstein, with Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey, is inspiring a new generation of investigative journalists?

Rebecca Corbett: What I can say is that Jodi and Megan have done tons of speaking appearances to all sorts of groups, including groups of students. The ‘She Said’ book was intended to be a real explanatory book that would make people understand how investigative journalism is done and what it involves. And they then did another book for student journalists, which was very much intended to speak to young people who are interested in going into journalism. And from both the response that they’ve gotten in many appearances and meeting with groups of students, there very much is a spirit of how this investigation inspired me to think about journalism as a way to expose wrongdoing, to show that you can actually make change. And when you break it down into its component parts, it makes a lot of sense. And I did a number of appearances as well and have heard from a lot of younger people that this really made me want to go into journalism and do this sort of this kind of work.

BFB: How important is it that it was a female editor and female journalists leading this effort?

RC: Well there is no control group here, so it’s hard to say if it had been male reporters if the reaction would have been different. But I think that it was both reassuring and exciting to some younger people who talked about this all-female team, and it was about a subject that, of course, was very intimate. It required an extraordinary degree of sensitivity in order to persuade victims to talk to us and talk in a usable way. So I think that definitely, it made some young women think ‘Oh, this is something that I can do,’ and not see it as just a male pursuit.

BFB: What about your journalism inspiration?

RC: I was not one of those people who went into journalism because of ‘All the President’s Men.’ Not that I didn’t find it an inspiring story, but I had planned, when I went to college, to go to medical school, and I was a science major. But at that fateful moment, when you have to make a decision about your major, I also really loved writing, and so I went in in the other direction. And at some point, I thought, ‘Oh, I want to be a documentary filmmaker.’ But I went to a small liberal arts college [Colby] with a tiny film department, and I did not have the wherewithal or the technical skills to figure out how to do this myself. And then during the summer after I graduated, I ended up getting a job at a little regional newspaper, and I fell in love with newsrooms and the fact that being a journalist — and I’m a fairly reserved person — gave you an excuse to stick your nose in anything that interested you, and gave you access to all sorts of real life in the real world. And that was it.

BFB: Newsrooms are special places, aren’t they?

RC: Yes, and I felt that everything came full circle because at the Times, we have a lot of people with extraordinary expertise. And at one point, I was managing two MDs and doing all sorts of medical things. I actually got to explore that.

BFB: This might be a bit of a silly question, but what is it like to see yourself portrayed on screen? What’s your reaction when that happens, and your character walks on the screen?

RC: Well, it’s all very surreal. We had seen various permutations of the scripts, and we’re permitted to make suggestions for accuracy about the journalism, and ‘Would reporters really do this? Would editors say that?’ that sort of thing. And we had an awareness because of Jodi and Megan’s book that a fair amount of the material was drawn from that, because it was explaining the backstory of everything. But it’s still very unusual to have that experience. And the whole thing was just a fascinating introduction to how films are made. We now know why they’re so expensive, and take so much time. The costume designer was amazing about really replicating Jodi and Megan’s wardrobe and look, and all of that. And I wear chunky necklaces, and she replicated a lot of those.

BFB: So did the costume designer come to your house and look through your closet?

RC: With Jodi and Megan she did. With me, she had seen a number of photographs of me from speaking gigs and other places. We had several very long calls where she would show me pictures and say ‘Is this what you were wearing?’ And of course, how do I remember what I was wearing and when? At one point, I did have to lay all my necklaces out and take a photograph of them. And I said, ‘Look, if you want to borrow them, that’s fine.’ But no, they don’t want to take possession of anyone’s property.

DN: Did Patricia Clarkson want to talk to you at all?

RC: It was very interesting. Zoe Kazan lives in Brooklyn, and before the filming, in the summer of 2021, Carey Mulligan came and lived in Brooklyn for a couple of months. And they met with Megan and Jody a number of times … and they had a lot of questions: ‘Would you do this? Would you do that? What’s this mean, this sort of language?’ They really wanted to understand sort of how journalism works. I think it’s possible that Clarkson was filming something else at the time. But I was told through the movie people that when she’s playing a real person…she does not like to meet with them before filming because it could be inhibiting. And I totally get that. And she also may have had far better things to do, which I also totally get.

So the first time I met her was on the red carpet (at the Los Angeles premier), which was very exciting. And I was being photographed with Jodi and Megan and some other people and then she entered from the far end and she saw me, and I assume she I had seen photographs….She says ‘Rebecca’ and puts her arms out, then I go over, we have a big hug. And then later that evening, there was a dinner. And so I went and chatted with her. And she told me, again, how her mission wasn’t to impersonate me, but to get to the essence of the character. In truth, it was a long film, and it was longer before it was cut, as these sorts of things work. And the sequences with the editors are a far smaller part of the film than the actual investigation, for all the right reasons.

BFB: I want to move on to your role as investigations editor. The New York Times is pretty much the pinnacle of American journalism. Anything that the Times does has an enormous audience, but there is also a target — and people want to find holes or question your judgment. And we went through a period of time, especially the prior presidential administration, where attacks were at unreal heights. How do you and your team handle that day in day out? What’s the effect of being such a huge target?

RC: A lot of the targeting – but not exclusively – was in the political realm. It was really our Washington bureau that was facing the barrage, particularly during the Trump administration, because there are people who cast us as the enemy. Over and over, we assert that we are an independent newspaper, and that there’s no administration that loves rigorous coverage. But it came at a time with a particularly combative type of presidency, and a particularly partisan time in the country. A lot of coverage was assailed by both by the right and the left. And if you’ve ever read the comments on our stories, you can see ‘Oh well this side objects that; Oh, this other side objects to that.’ In particular, the White House reporters, the political reporters, just took incoming all the time, which can be very weird thing. And for a while, it certainly extended to coverage of any topics that had a politicized aspect of them to them. There are all sorts of subject areas where there’s going to be criticism from both sides, like the transgender issue right now as an example, or curriculum issues.

We try to make our stories as bulletproof as possible and have a pretty impressive track record of not making mistakes and not getting the premise wrong. One of the scariest things about investigative reporting is, you know, the, the phenomenon of adding two and two and getting five. Throughout the whole process, we are constantly digging for more and trying to understand more, making sure we really understand the context, testing our assertions.

There was a scene in the movie where Jodi and Megan are laying out, ‘We have this, we have this, we have this, we have this.’ But my character says ‘You don’t have a publishable story.’ And at that point they did not. All that meant is that we do more, and we try to find where there’s some other avenues we hadn’t pursued.

But the thing about investigative journalism is that it has to be a persuasive story, you have to be able to make the case and make it in a way, which means, hopefully, not using anonymous sources or heavily relying on anonymous sources, being able to buttress things with documents, being able to have on-the-record interviews, being able to show whatever evidence it is…. I think one of the things that we really try to be mindful of is that readers don’t want to just believe us, we have to show them why we’re drawing these conclusions and what it is based on.

BFB: So when you say you your track record is solid, does that mean minimal or no corrections on stories?

RC: I’m talking about the investigations department in particular. I’m not saying there are never corrections. I’m sure there have been. But everyone in our department has unbelievably elaborate fact checking methods. And our second readers have unbelievably elaborate fact checking methods, and we try to be incredibly careful about it. But there is no story that I can think of that our department has done in recent years where the fundamental underpinnings have fallen apart under scrutiny after publication.

BFB: I saw a comment from you about how you were in the office overnight, into the morning, reading that story. I know how editors live and work and how during the day, it’s one meeting after another, sitting in rooms. How do you handle that type of life or lifestyle where it’s very cerebral all the time and you’re the editor, and you don’t have the luxury or the fun of being the reporter and having that interview or crafting and writing the story. How do you how do you approach those limitations or the reality of life as an editor, sitting in a conference room and these tough meetings?

RC: I got shunted into editing way earlier in my career than I otherwise would have imagined. You know, I think that temperamentally, I’m well suited to it. I’m a fairly low maintenance personality. It’s hard to have a high maintenance editor and a high maintenance reporter working together. That’s not always the best combo. And so I do have to live a bit vicariously through my reporters. There have certainly been occasions where I’ve gone to interviews, where I’ve gone to government agencies to hear their objections to things that we might be intending to report and listen to their case… I see myself very much in partnership with reporters, and that this is a very collaborative process.

I’m not doing their job, and they’re not doing my job. But there’s just so much back and forth. First of all, is this something that we want to pursue? Is this a story that has the potential to have impact, that affects a lot of people, that involves some sort of wrongdoing or accountability. Then during the reporting process, it’s a lot of Tell me what you’ve heard? Where does this take us? What do we think this story can be? Is there a whole other line of reporting here that we should be doing? Do we need to bring someone else in so that this can be done more efficiently?’

I think that the film and Jody and Megan’s book make a really good case of explaining how things unfold… We went into it with these rumors about Weinstein, but we don’t know whether they’re real, or whether it was all consensual. And, and that certainly was his argument, after the fact. We thought it involved actresses, and there was a real inflection point, weeks or months into the reporting, where suddenly Jodi learned and realized that it wasn’t just actresses, it was his own employees. And there was this whole group of people.

And in the film, they were almost the emotional core of it, those that representation of those young women, because there was a cluster of them. They were young women at the very beginning of what they had hoped would be a career in the industry, because they were so in love with the magic of films. So there were constant (developments) that change[d] our thinking…And that’s a really wonderful part of the process. We’re in this exercise about something that’s important, and how can we both get the story and make it the best it can be? … The joy of editing is being in partnership with these reporters who are doing this.

BFB: How closely do you pay attention these days to the media scene in Baltimore?

RC: I have paid a fair amount of attention to the Banner and its start; I read the Sun, though, I will admit, not every day, but my husband does every day and informs me of anything I really should know. And, you know, I’m aware of Baltimore Brew and fishbowl, which I sort of periodically pay attention to.

BFB: I think, as you know, as a mid-market suffering all the slings and arrows of the business, Baltimore, especially The Sun, has been in tough shape and the investigation side is a place where it’s hard to keep that commitment up and the resources. I know you saw last week when the Washington Post dived in and helped complete an investigation in Las Vegas, about a Ponzi scheme involving Mormons, after the local reporter had been killed. With all the resources at the Times, is there ever a discussion of a broader responsibility in journalism of partnering or helping support investigations in communities that might not get done otherwise?

RC: Early on, we had a partnership with The Texas Tribune, and we would publish some of their material in the Times….In the last year, the Times announced this fellowship program, which is intended to support investigative journalism at local news outlets across the country. And the Dean Baquet, who just stepped down as Executive Editor is heading this effort. They are in the process of selecting fellows at these news outlets across the country. And the whole premise of it is that that reporters apply with a project in mind, that’s a local project project…. And that the Times pays their salary for a year. And that the home news outlet, you know, is willing to free them up and is supportive of the project. And it’s a way of both, you know, helping that project get done providing a lot of editorial support and resources, you know, things that smaller papers or outlets don’t have data, you know, people graphics, but at most particularly a lot of editorial attention. And that, but also help, you know, inculcate some of those values and skills throughout the newsrooms there.

The Times has ambitions, not just to be a global newspaper, but newsroom, but to also be invested in every part of this country. ….So I think it will be a very exciting opportunity and if successful, and there are already some really talented people involved in it. If successful, you know, it can grow

BFB: What’s your favorite things to do in Baltimore? What do you love about Baltimore? And when you tell people in New York about Baltimore, what do you tell them they have to do?

RC: I usually say that there’s a lot of beautiful old buildings in Baltimore. And I’ll give you a more specific thing. My daughter got married in June 2021, and it was a COVID wedding in our backyard — a 20-person wedding that was just perfect and we wouldn’t have it any other way. Then that Labor Day weekend, there was a bigger party and it was down in Cosima, Mill No. 1. It is this very cool space and we could use this courtyard, and it’s right on the river. And so, in coming up with list of things for the guests to do, we talked about walking through Mount Vernon Square, and these beautiful old buildings, and then there’s these all these mill buildings. My husband knows Baltimore incredibly well….We had drinks one night on the harbor, and people were just amazed. They had never been to Baltimore before, and they said, ‘My God, this is so beautiful.’ You’re looking across at the Domino Sugar sign, and there’s all these ships going back and forth, and all these little boats. You can be a dark view person, where Baltimore has so many problems that you think ‘How is the city ever going to solve any of this?’ But there are so many wonderful things about the city and so many beautiful parts of it.

BFB: Last question: if you had not gone into journalism or become an editor, what do you see yourself doing are in the parallel universe where Rebecca Cobra has other choices to make?

RC: Oh, my: I’ve had a number of alternative fantasy careers. Not having done the whole science and medical school thing, at some point in later years, I decided I wanted to become a nurse or midwife or get a degree in Public Health from the (Bloomberg) School of Public Health. And so I went as far as getting the course catalog and realizing and I wanted to be like an epidemiologist because it’s like a detective, right? It’s like being a reporter. ….And then I realized, Wait, it’s all statistics. I don’t want to do statistics.

Then (I considered) being a cultural anthropologist, which is basically journalism as well, or a child development specialist. The truth is that I had a lot of interests, but I’ve always loved what I did. So I really had no incentive to leave. As a journalist who has a long, happy career, both at the sun, and at the Times, I’ve done a lot of medical coverage. During COVID, that’s all I did for like that first year and a half. And one of the reporters who I worked with, Sheri Fink is an MD, PhD, who was the lead reporter in the country of getting into hospitals to see what was happening and writing these very insightful stories about what happened during that first year of COVID. So there’s my vicarious medical career. And almost any story is cultural anthropology. And I edited the first documentary film made by the newsroom that the Times did about five years ago, …. I was called a producer, I believe, of this documentary film. So it’s sort of like I managed to work in my fantasy careers through my real career.

Terri Lee Freeman faced great expectations as she returned to Maryland in 2021. After five years at the head of the National Civil Rights Museum, located in the Memphis motel where Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated, she was becoming the executive director of the Reginald F. Lewis Museum of Maryland African American History & Culture in Baltimore.

Museum supporters and leaders were enthralled by her experience and vision, as well as her background in philanthropy, having previously served for 18 years as the president of the Greater Washington Community Foundation.  Freeman, 62, came aboard at a pivotal moment: Baltimore and the nation were reckoning with the racial injustice that boiled over after the murder of George Floyd. Museum operations had not fully returned to their pre-pandemic state, and Baltimore was reeling from violence.

Not long after taking the position, personal tragedy hit. Freeman’s husband, Rev. Dr. Bowyer G. Freeman, a longtime pastor and past Howard County NAACP president, died unexpectedly in January 2022. Freeman’s professional obligations briefly became secondary.

But she has persisted, and in the past year, the museum has unveiled an ambitious strategic plan that aims to grow its annual visitors from 13,000 to 70,000 within a few years, as well as increase its endowment by 25 percent and launch a capital campaign in advance of the museum’s 25^th anniversary in 2030.

Freeman spoke with Baltimore Fishbowl via Zoom this month about the role of the institution in the city and the state, and how to attract the widest possible audience. She wants to recapture the excitement and pride when the museum opened – and amplify it for a new generation. As she told us, “We have to make history connect to contemporary.” This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Baltimore Fishbowl: February 2023 will mark two years in your current role. What have been the biggest eye-openers now that you’ve been here and have some time under your belt at the Lewis Museum?

Terri Lee Freeman: One of them is that this is a really tough media market to get attention in. I don’t know why it is, but it has been very hard to garner media attention. I came from a museum that – literally – whenever the National Civil Rights Museum said anything, we had everybody in the media at the museum covering it. Not so much here at the Lewis Museum, but we’re trying to develop that.

I think the other thing is that I do think there is a fondness for this place, even though I found that many people haven’t been back to visit the museum in a very long time. There’s this nostalgia around how the museum was started, and what a proud moment that was for Baltimore and for African Americans. But then some people say to me, ‘Oh, you know, I’ve never been; I’ve never walked through the galleries,’ or, ‘Boy, it’s been a long time since I’ve visited the museum.’” So our goal really is to get people back into the museum, to take a look again at the permanent exhibition, but also to come visit us when we have our changing exhibitions and installations.

BFB: Let’s talk about the changing exhibitions. What’s the thought process of what an exhibit should be to draw an audience and garner attention?

TLF: If we just live in the realm of history, we cut off a portion of our audience. And if we just live in the realm of art and culture, we will cut off another set of visitors. So we have to be able to combine the two. We have to make history connect to contemporary. While ultimately museum-goers tend to be on the older side, we have to grow younger visitors. because there’ll be around longer.

We had a Smithsonian exhibit called ‘Men of Change’ that was incredibly visual, and both historic and contemporary. As a culture and art exhibit it hit all of the right notes. We were the first museum on the East Coast that showed the entire exhibit. Part of what we’re trying to do is, in many ways, correct the narrative, or challenge the current narrative. So to present an exhibit that talked about all of the positive things that African American men have contributed or are contributing to society certainly goes contrary to the message that we hear on a on a daily basis, about Black men — how scary they are — versus Black men as contributors and culture creators.

We try to present things that are going to make people look at things differently. My thinking is really, if you come to this museum, if you believe the same way you came, we’re not doing our job. If you don’t come and at least have some questions, or begin to think about things differently, or have a desire to learn more about something, then we are really not doing justice to what an institution like this should do.

We have an exhibition coming up — The Afro-Futurist Manifesto: Blackness Reimagined — the whole idea is around Afro-futurism and what is going to be the future state of African Americans. It’s got a science fiction edge to it, but it also has a reality edge to it. And I think it’s going to present the idea of the future for black people in a very different light. [The exhibit is being curated by Venice Biennale in Italy and being shared in Baltimore.]

BFB: There are a lot of people who don’t come to downtown much at all in Baltimore. You sit on the Downtown Partnership board, among your other responsibilities. How do you see the role of the museum in downtown Baltimore?

TLF: I think arts and culture institutions are real draws for people to come into a community. Because arts and culture is important to people. It’s a release for people. One of the issues that I have found — and I’ve talked to the Downtown Partnership about this, as well as Visit Baltimore, and we are working on rectifying it — is that there’s no signage in Downtown Baltimore that talks about these incredible tourist spots. You see something about the aquarium and that’s about it. You don’t see anything about the Lewis; you don’t see signage downtown or on the freeway about the Walters and the BMA. And, again, where I come from, tourism was a big part of what made Memphis Memphis. So there were signs everywhere about how to get to these places, and to draw people into the community.

But I also think it is how we talk about the city. If all we talk about is the incidents around squeegeeing, or whatever else, and don’t talk about the other good things that are going on in the city, then of course, that’s what people that’s what’s going to come to mind.

I think what we have to do is this whole idea of changing the narrative to talk about how creative of a community Baltimore is. I mean, the creative class here is off the charts, right? And you have people who have who have migrated from Baltimore to other communities and are making it really big. So what we want to do, I think, is we want to concentrate on the creative class that is here and how they are creating this kind of hip, funky city that is Baltimore, Maryland, great for younger people, great for older people, walkable in many ways.

BFB: Talk to me about your fundraising efforts that are going on right now. I saw in your annual report an appropriation that Sen. Van Hollen helped secure.

TLF: The Van Hollen funds were specifically for an installation that we are doing with the Maryland Lynching Memorial Project on the individuals that are known to have been lynched in the state of Maryland. There are 38 names that we know of, and there will be an installation within the permanent exhibition that will define lynching and will identify the victims of lynching. The Maryland Lynching Memorial Project has actually collected soil from many of the lynching sites, and so we will incorporate that into it. And then we’re going to fast forward to the fact that now we don’t necessarily hang people from trees, but we still lynch people in this country. And many times they are black men whose lives are snuffed out because of drug charges that are minor, but once it’s on your record, your ability to live in a productive manner can be very, very difficult. So we want to talk about what is the modern-day equivalent, and how do we ensure that people’s lives are not snuffed out for small infractions.

We don’t want to re traumatize people who maybe have already had to deal with a lot of trauma. But we also don’t want to sugarcoat what lynching was, what lynching is, yeah, so it will be a careful balance.

Additionally, the state of Maryland provided us with $4.5 million toward a capital campaign to fully renovate the third-floor permanent exhibition. It will require about $15 million to renovate that entire floor….I think we won’t really launch the capital campaign in total, until the second half of this year, the goal would be to raise somewhere in the neighborhood of about $25 million dollars….The goal is to have the third floor renovated in time for what would be its 25th anniversary in 2030.

BFB: I’ve read a little bit about this strategic plan that you developed. It says you need to expand outreach, with a specific reference to reaching out to 11 counties in Maryland and you have a visitor growth plan too. How are you going to implement that strategic plan?

TLF: Some of that is outreach and making sure that people know that we are available. One of the big parts of making this happen is working with school systems and helping them develop or provide them with tools so that they can teach this history. There is no standard curriculum. The goal for us would be to be used as a resource so we could provide an outline, or first source materials, or a reading list, or a documentary list that allows educators to better be able to teach this history to students. Because the fact of the matter is, when you don’t teach this history, you don’t teach the entire story. And Maryland’s history is so fascinating, because Maryland was a border state. Border states were kind of were lukewarm: they were sympathetic to slavery, and sympathetic to freedom. Baltimore City had more free blacks than anyplace else in the country at that time, yet they walked side by side with those who were enslaved. What must it have been like to live in a community like this? And how did that impact the nation?

We have a responsibility to get out to other parts of the state, and tell people that we are here. And so one of the things that I had hoped to do in 2022, was really begin to do some of that. And unfortunately, I had a family situation that took my attention away for several months. My husband died suddenly in January of last year, so that took me away from kind of the focus that I had, but I feel like I’m back in it. And this year will be one of those years, where I try to get around connect to other cultural institutions in these other counties. And figure out how we can partner with some of them.

BFB: Now that you’ve moved back to Maryland, what are your favorite things about Baltimore about being in the city?

TLF: I love the vibe that is Baltimore. Baltimore is kind of quirky, kind of funky, kind of hip. It has the right level of sophistication. It is not a pretentious city. It’s a welcoming city. I find it actually very similar to Memphis except Memphis has the southern overtone. But I love the food scene here in Baltimore. I love the people who are so invested in the city, who really want the city to be better. And I love the I love the arts and culture community.

BFB: When you fulfill your vision in 10 years, how will the museum be different than it is today?

TLF: I think the Lewis Museum will be well-visited. I think having a target of somewhere in the neighborhood of 65,000 to 75,000 visitors annually is not out of the question. I think that it will be seen almost as a ‘third space’ if you will, a place where people can come and congregate and enjoy what there is to see in the museum, but also maybe just sit and chat and have a cup of coffee and be a place where people can meet. I also would like to see us as a place that is teeming with young people during the weekdays during the school year, where young people are taking field trips to the museum or doing projects at the museum or doing research. We have over 11,000 objects in our collection, and to be able to have that searchable for people to do research and learn about these items would be a game-changer.